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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Y' know,there's a need for a little bit of faith to believe that this whole world and universe exist.How does any one of us truly know if what we call reality is real?

We all know that mind can create a very life-like worlds within itself where you feel everything as if it was real.How do we know that all this around us isn't an illusion?

There are others who see the same things as I?How do you know they're not just another lie created by your mind?Proofs?Mind could trick you into believing that there are proofs as it is very powerful.

You can prove only that you are real.Everything else is uncertainty.If you can believe in this reality,why is it so hard to believe in a being greater than us?

I don't see anyone being attacked for believing in existence of aliens even though noone saw them nor did they prove themselves by being there because it's perfectly logical.There must be someone else in this universe,right?Why then there can't be room for one god or maybe several of them (I don't want to exclude polytheists)?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Y' know,there's a need for a little bit of faith to believe that this whole world and universe exist.How does any one of us truly know if what we call reality is real?
this is where things start to get ridiculous (even more :P) imo but I'll try to answer as best I can.

Quote:
We all know that mind can create a very life-like worlds within itself where you feel everything as if it was real.How do we know that all this around us isn't an illusion?
mind can create very life-like worlds indeed. but not with that amount of detail. look at your dreams and compare em to "reality" and you'll see that they are just very incomplete sketches. if it were true that I make up reality the mona-lisa would be an invention of my mind and every machine, artwork etc. as well. Now I may be not be exactly dumb but I don't think that I'd be capable of inventing all that. :D

another idea: if everything around me, including you, is an invention of my mind, how come I cannot bend it at will? and if I only dream "reality" that would mean that I myself exist somewhere. and then the question would be: where the heck did I come from?

Quote:
Mind could trick you into believing
y'know mind can do a lot of things. but so long as you don't have a degree in neurosciences you're just rambling. just because this area isn't explored perfectly yet, doesn't give anyone the right to assume that the weirdest speculations might actually be true.

Quote:
If you can believe in this reality,why is it so hard to believe in a being greater than us?
because I perceive this reality. I see it, feel it, smell it. haven't seen, felt or smelt god yet though....

Quote:
I don't see anyone being attacked for believing in existence of aliens
I also don't believe in the existance of aliens (or that they exist and visited our planet) till I see em. but considering that we evolved from a bunch of microbes there actually is a chance of that happening on other planets as well. comparing alien lifeforms to god is like comparing a tree to a story. it is very possible that they exist (though it is quite a small chance) just not in the way hollywood and some lunatics imagine them.

Quote:
There must be someone else in this universe,right?Why then there can't be room for one god or maybe several of them
must? why must? and if you're throwing in aliens with god would mean that god would be a result of evolution thus wouldn't be a god....

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:21 pm 
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http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php

Discussion end.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Discussion end.


i don't think so ;)

there's already several problems i can see with that.

one of which it forces you to click on something, just so it has the capacity to justify its purpose, in which to state god exists.

there's several questions where both is is true, but you can only carry on because it forces you to the one the creator of that program thinks is true, which is likely a Christian propaganda expert.

if you honestly can't see what they are trying to do there, then your falling victim to something that you previously thought didn't exist, and you've been indoctrinated.

its can be as easy as that.
if you already thought he did, then you should also question yourself again.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Then how did you avoid being indoctrinated?Enlighten us so that we may cast away the shackles of religion and live freely like oryxes.

Do you wish to believe?No?Fine by me.Why others have problems with me believing is beyond me.

It's funny how children of atheists and agnostics become believers and children of religious become atheists and anti-theists.Wouldn't you agree?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Then how did you avoid being indoctrinated?Enlighten us so that we may cast away the shackles of religion and live freely like oryxes.


1. Extreme pessimism from the get go.
2. Commmon sense
3. The lack of all the facts being shown
4. While some arguements where convincing and somewhat true, they weren't done properly.
5. The way its set out and forces you back to the question when you select the opposite is basically a false positive in some places.

like the question: is the laws of science, maths and logic immaterial or material?

the answer is both. maths and science is a man made concept (immaterial), while it forces you to choose that its a material law.

implying that we are gods in a way before we even reached the conclusion of the whole thing by saying that humans, who uses the concept of maths as a tool, can have an impact on the universe or logic.

maths is a method, or should i say tool that we have came up with to better understand how things work. the world works the way it does, not because we decide to say how it does, no matter what or how we find out how it does.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:23 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that I chose "immaterial" and it didn't bring me back...Glitch?Or were you just generalising?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:33 pm 
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I especially loved the question whether you think that molesting a child for fun is bad in any case....

now ask yourself: do you think that offering your daughters to rapists is okay in any situation?

well so it happened in the bible. god sent two angels in disguise to sodom and gomorrha to see whether it was really that bad there. well it was. people of S&G wanted to rape the angels. Lot, the one good guy, then offered his virgin daughters to the mob so they could get raped instead of the angels. the mob didn't accept that offer. still god destroyed the entire cities and saved Lot and his family. Lot, the guy who was okay with his daughters getting raped was saved by God. now tell me how that fits with universal, immaterial laws of morality.

oh and I also loved this:

Quote:
Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist.
whoa. where does this conclusion come from? that's like saying that bananas exist and therefore fairies do.

oh and as i already said. any "proof" of gods existence that man thought of is by your own logic bound to fail.

snickers at the fact that whenever you hit exit you get to the Disney homepage.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:09 pm 
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if you want to prove god exists, you have to remove every human element to do it.
else you will fail.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:23 pm 
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A friendly reminder of Rule number 3:

3. Do not attack a race or religion
We are a very diverse group here from many countries and many backgrounds. Respect that diversity.

I haven't really seen that from skimming this page but I know that it will probably happen at which point this thread will be locked.

On a personal note I think you guys are wasting your time. :D Debating religion and the existence of God is often a completely pointless task, especially on the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:27 pm 
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but a fun one none the less.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Yes,fun.It's funny to see how some people think that religion equals indoctrination.

You cannot be indoctrinated if you don't wish so.That's why Horus didn't "fall" for the proof.You can be seduced though...

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Ira Aduro wrote:
A friendly reminder of Rule number 3:

3. Do not attack a race or religion
We are a very diverse group here from many countries and many backgrounds. Respect that diversity.

I haven't really seen that from skimming this page but I know that it will probably happen at which point this thread will be locked.

On a personal note I think you guys are wasting your time. :D Debating religion and the existence of God is often a completely pointless task, especially on the internet.


Says the Baptist :D . I am of the Presbyterian persuasion so we stay to the argumentative end of things :) .

I stayed out of this conversation for exactly that reason but came in because I saw nothing but non-arguments and popular soap box ideas. This is a sophisticated topic just start taking a look at the material either for philosophy of religion or just plain Theology. The arguments are all there, the only reason this discussion tends to reside on the petty side of things is because very few people take the question seriously.

As to Horus and Patman's question about how could we know God as proof if he is beyond our comprehension...the answer is very simple: God is all powerful therefor what is his Will will be done. This is a very basic premise based on the attributes of God. This is the kind of basic concept that is needed for talking about God. The question of why he does not give himself over to your need for proof when He works in the world everyday is not a strong point. Once again demanding that God should appear to appease you by appearing as what is lesser is obviously insulting for the Lord who gave his only son to do just that.

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Last edited by guyderue on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:08 pm 
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here's a few things that might add some intelligent discussion, and was put down ages ago and were brought up in other discussions between me and a few friends, and some where moments of thought that i kept for later.

Warning: wall post. if you decide its tl:dr and you decide to throw out random stuff without reading it properly, then i will maim you, and drain the soul from your body and feed whats left to my cat. :twisted:

1# Do you believe in santa clause?

this is a question i asked myself while i was thinking about the human existence.

so i asked myself, do i believe in Santa clause. well the answer was, while i don't believe in him, i believe in the spirit of him. im not talking about the ghost or manifestation of him in any way , but what he represents.

giving and receiving, joy etc.

so then i thought, what if people asked me if i believed in god. well, they should be asking me "do you believe in the spirit of God"

well then that would be a yes of some sorts. what he can represent spiritually can be beneficial. but sadly he doesn't leave anything to be desired for since i don't actually believe in him and probably never will.
he might exist but i don't really care if he does or not. he isn't going to make man kinds problems go away either way.

2# A Perception Of Creation, Evolution, and Ultimately Religion

This is about my views and beliefs on the said matter (its in the title for the blind ones, in which case you can't read this)

i Believe that a god can co-exist with the scientific, however i am undecided about whether gods do or don't exist, and even if they did i don't see any reason to worship them. i will break down my views into easy reading sections on each part of the subject so you don't get confused.

Science:
science is about finding out the truth like how, and why things work. its essentially a way to find out why we are here and who we are. there are many types of science but I've included it in one big happy explanation.

Religion:
religion is a way of defining who we are, or who we want to be. religion can be good or it can be bad. religion is often used for bettering ourselves as a whole and a way of life.

Both, while controversial they can be used for both good and bad. ultimately it is up to the human psyche to determine how use it.

Religion Causes War Argument:
a common argument for Atheists is that a lot of war is caused by religious people. an example would be the holy crusades in the middle ages. the truth is, that religion isn't the one to blame. its in fact the ones in power, those individuals who have the guile, leadership and powers of persuasion that causes them.

humans have kindness, and hatred in our DNA and it defines who we are. its a sad truth but if we were to think more about our actions and why we do it, then we could better ourselves as a race. poverty, famine and war can be avoided if we take the time to do so.

Religion has many benefits but i believe that the amount of conflicts and contradictions involved today make believing in gods and such not worth the hassle. there is no real proof and evidence to say that they do or don't exist. Just because you can't sense it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. long ago people believed the world was flat and that the sun revolved around us. we also thought that there was no such thing as air and that we mysteriously breathed nothing.

i wander a lot at why people believe in why they believe in something that may not exist. i find Faith is often misplaced. we shouldn't have faith in anything but ourselves. wars and conflicts over different views on religion would most likely be avoided if this was the case. we should use the time we have to learn and experience things rather than justifying ideals to others when in fact we are just trying to justify ourselves. we need to look more at our actions and ask ourselves, why we do what we do and question everything. that is the only way we can truly advance as a race.

Creation:
many scientist believe that the universe was created by the big bang.
the theory is that there was a sudden explosion and over time particles and such fused together. asteroids and such collided and the force of gravity held them together. other elements such as helium and other gasses fused to create the stars.

we know by science that fusion creates heat and gravity is a pulling force. this theory is very plausible and how can someone who believes more in god deny this. they need to take a good look at what's around them. the theory doesn't deny or acknowledge god in it at all and shouldn't be a threat to anyone's beliefs.

many arguments bring up if "god didn't put us on this earth then how are we here?"
My answer to this is evolution theory. the idea of evolution holds a lot of evidence and it looks right. mostly the bit of that we have evolved over time from natural selection.
you can see it in other animals, mammals insects and even in DNA of Micro-organisms and plant life.

the very idea of us being animalistic is controversial to many religious people. in fact we share the same common instincts such as reproduction, hunger, anger, to protect our families, to love, compassion etc.

this leads me to another commonly asked question: if we came from nothingness then why does life exist. this question has an answer that requires a lot of intelligence and thought. evolution, creation theory and science holds the answer. remember i talked about asteroids forming and heat made from fission? well gravity being the force it is keeps things together, the world for example is believed to be created in the same way. the core of the planet is molten and we have volcanoes because the heat is trying to escape. volcanoes would have erupted when the planet was still forming. this cooled and gave us the tectonic plates. the volcanoes would have given of sulphur, carbon dioxide and various other gasses to form the ozone layer. over time these gasses would be pushed around the place from volcanic activity, gravitic forces and more complex scientific crap to create winds rain and such. scientists believe that over half the water on the planet isn't native to earth but was on a nearby other planet forming as well that couldn't form fully.

with all these processes happening and all these elements coming together we get amino acids. scientists have figured out that electricity activates them bringing to life. as the world was forming and over time there would be many lightning storms and the like. all it would need is the correct setting and you have basic life.

3#
quotes i hear that i like posted here whether they are from me or someone else XD

1: The Bible is an anthology of gods mistakes
2: Your just Atheists, because you want to Sin
3: so you all don't believe in god? so you don't believe in anything? well god is everything and you don't believe in god.

4:"Because God isn't bound by the rules of this universe."
How convenient.
They used to say gods lived in the forest. Until we entered.
Then they said gods lived in the mountains.
Until we climbed.
Then they say gods lived in the sky.
Until we pierced the clouds.

Then they said "well...heaven's not a REAL place."

Notice a pattern?

4# a random convo
quoted Sam:
Is it not ironic, for God to be deemed the answer for creation? After all for a being of conciousness and thought to exist he needs to be biological in nature. Thought is just electrical impulse in the nervous system. In turn relying on energy from heat, Which didn't exist at the time. And God has to have gained experience to have infinite wisdom And how can one gain wisdom or experience from nothingness?

you see, why isn't there a religion and this is still a bit stupid, But at least it possesses a modicum of logic...
A belief that a God formed after the big bang and created everything lmfao"

5#"how is it that if destiny existed , why the **** is everything else in the known universe so random?"

"that's just defeating the point"

told you it was going to be a wall post XD

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:34 pm 
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I'm not understanding #5 very well.What did you want to say?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:01 pm 
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I think #5 is a reference to 'God's Divine Plan,' Basically how many people believe that there are no coincidences and everything is planned. ie Destiny. Personally, I feel the the concept of destiny is in direct conflict with free will. No matter what 'free choices' you make will ultimately lead you to ONE final outcome. The only way that theory works... is if your destiny, is to die. Death is one of the few constants in the universe. And if everything in the universe is written in stone by God or some other divine being(s), why do so many things seem to happen completely at random? You can't have predetermined destiny/events AND random occurence, much like you can't have 2 items of equal mass/size occupying the same space at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Duorn wrote:
I think #5 is a reference to 'God's Divine Plan,' Basically how many people believe that there are no coincidences and everything is planned. ie Destiny. Personally, I feel the the concept of destiny is in direct conflict with free will. No matter what 'free choices' you make will ultimately lead you to ONE final outcome. The only way that theory works... is if your destiny, is to die. Death is one of the few constants in the universe. And if everything in the universe is written in stone by God or some other divine being(s), why do so many things seem to happen completely at random? You can't have predetermined destiny/events AND random occurence, much like you can't have 2 items of equal mass/size occupying the same space at the same time.


I see why you think that determinism and free will are ultimately incompatible, your reasoning is solid. The final example of two objects in the same space/time though is a bit off the mark. Physical determinism such as death or your object example presuppose their own validity and ward off the paradoxical in-between. But its really in-between concepts of free will and determinism where all the useful questions lie. The question is not so simple as A or B but not A and B. From a Christian perspective any argument that God's Will or Determination is for you to die is unacceptable. Any Messianic theory looks far past that point but you certainly have a meta-point that points to the larger issue. What God promises to do is mend what is broken and make whole what has been sundered by original sin. Our destiny is not to die but to be made whole again. Sin means to be away or apart from God either by our nature or by our choices. Because of sin we have choices but our choices are all negative for all of them lead away from God. Those which are good are wholly good and come from Gods Spirit within us not from ourselves. Our nature is that of sin though being made in God's image we have his spirit dwelling within, which is how we can recognize the good but never attain it by our own designs.

Therefore free will is not an illusion its really the ability to choose from a group of lesser evils, which is why things often go awry. That does not mean free will only leads to evil but that its outcome can never be wholly good - i.e. it can never mend the essential brokenness that resides in any worldly event. What is determined is how God's Grace affects your life, you have no power over this good its a gift. Faith through Grace as many denominations put it. That said if good is determined but it is The Good then what of your free will would eclipse it or be more worthwhile? See the point? Free Will, in itself, is not something good while, on the other hand, determinism or God's Will is necessarily good. So there is something of an ethical and spiritual implication that does not mesh with the overall physical examples of impossibility and determinism.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Yeah, I figured the space/time example may have been a bit inaccurate, but I still hold to the rest of what I said, in addition, I really have to say that I don't believe in original sin, because (at least the way it was explained to me) we're all BORN sinners, from the very moment we emerge into the world. It's a concept I really just can't rationalize. AND the entire reason (at least imho) why so many children get brainwashed into worshipping something they don't truly understand (and wont understand until they are older and able to question themselves and their beliefs.)


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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:52 pm 
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*Rises to a slow clap for Guyderue*
Btw, Dourn people are raised up on christianity/other religions, because their parents feel obligated to take them there so that they can learn their culture, have a set of values to lean upon when they get older, and be more responsible.

It is just that religion has gotten a smack to the face to the general public, because some of the parents that do this do it for all of the wrong reasons. They take their children there as a form of punishment or to try and teach them that if they don't do what they want, they'll burn in a fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Quote:
This is a sophisticated topic just start taking a look at the material either for philosophy of religion or just plain Theology.
true, I haven't gone through 13 years of hardcore catholic school to have sub-par religion discussions :D

Quote:
As to Horus and Patman's question about how could we know God as proof if he is beyond our comprehension
that line is worded badly imo. i hope it means the following:
god is beyond human comprehension thus any human trying to prove god is bound to fail.

Quote:
the answer is very simple: God is all powerful therefor what is his Will will be done.
how is that an answer to anything?

Quote:
The question of why he does not give himself over to your need for proof when He works in the world everyday is not a strong point.
as already said, why would god be diminished in any way by proving to us that he exists? next question: so you're saying that god would make himself lesser by showing himself. BUT you do believe that you, a human, are somehow able to see proof for his existance (e.g. existance of the world, morality, etc.). now tell me how that is not making god lesser.
Quote:
Because of sin we have choices but our choices are all negative for all of them lead away from God. Those which are good are wholly good and come from Gods Spirit within us not from ourselves.
basically you're saying that free choice is bad. all the time. except for when we choose to do good. but when we choose to do good we're not actually acting on our own account but rather it's gods spirit taking control and letting us do the good thing. excuse me but how does that make any sense?

Quote:
Free Will, in itself, is not something good while, on the other hand, determinism or God's Will is necessarily good.
wow. you just took a huge dump on the ideals of enlightenment. phew. not bad.

if i get all this correctly you're saying that whatever we do out of our own will is... well not evil, but just not good. only good we can do is if we let that "gods spirit" spark in us take over. basically we can't do anything about it cause that spark gets into action not by our choice but by gods choice. so all we can do is wait for god to do the good things through us, while we stand aside and try to keep it low on the bad things.
till one day we will be mended and all that jazz.

okay so let's say that that is actually true. why would god then need anyone to believe in him? what's the entire purpose of religion if it doesn't have any effect on the wholly good being done?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:04 am 
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5#"how is it that if destiny existed , why the **** is everything else in the known universe so random?"

"that's just defeating the point"


Actually most, if not all, things in the universe have a function, for example: Black holes keep galaxies together and help galaxies get their shapes by having one or multiple of them in a galaxy. That and there is an entire nebula made out of the components you find in alcohol. Surely there will be a use for that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:57 am 
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Patman42 wrote:

okay so let's say that that is actually true. why would god then need anyone to believe in him? what's the entire purpose of religion if it doesn't have any effect on the wholly good being done?


Salvation? We should not forget that most essential of gifts.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:18 am 
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The fact that the cup is half-empty, half full.

A question should be asked, "Why can't he be real?"

Rather than, "Is God real?"

In my honest opinion.

Belief for belief's sake, not for anybody else but yourself. One should not belief for anything other than the fact that One wants to believe.

The day Science proves God isn't real is the day humanity loses it's innocence. We have for so longed based our morals and our way of life on the ideals of what a decent person would do simply because it seemed right? No. But because there was a God who said it was right.

Without God, humanity becomes a slave to evolution. I'd rather have God, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:20 am 
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The Bible states that we should fear God, that at the same time we should also love him, why would we love someone who we fear? Must be some Middle Eastern way, I mean you should fear your Dad, so you don't rebel against him, you should also love him. Most of the Bible is contrary to what a lot of Christians believe it says, while it is true there are verses which say Gay's are an abomination, there also verses in the same exact book (Leviticus) that say Slavery is fine, as long as your not enslaving Israelites. I argued with my Mom about this, blatantly ignoring my arguments and saying 'The Old Testament is full of God's word being twisted, I meant there people, how can they be trusted?" then I replied 'Like Pastors?" (I was arguing that if you were a true Christian you'd read the Bible and decide for yourself when God's plan will go into motion, we shouldn't have someone else hand pick verses in the Bible which make it sound good and tell us what it means, total BS IMO.

As for "You can't prove God's there, but you can't prove he's not" this is largely meant to try to just settle the dispute, whats wrong with this is that we're trying to argue that just because millions of people believe in God that he has to be there. If I went forward and made a Scientific Theory which had no evidence, would this mean that you can't disprove it as let's say you had no evidence it was false? NO, if you have a theory then bring forth evidence to prove its true or otherwise your just making up ****.

EDIT: No 7, its not like Atheists are people who constantly break laws and shoot little children, we didn't base our morale's off God, as after all Muslims have entirely different Morales, as well as Israelite Jews, whose morale's and ways of life would frighten/disgust us Americans.

For example, if everyone read the Bible, they would know there is a lot of stuff in it which contradicts our morales.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:26 am 
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Not to sound like an ass, but (going back to Original Sin) there is no such thing as innocence, so if science did manage to prove that God(s) is/aren't real, humanity would not be any worse off than we are now, and if evolution isn't a valid theory, how do you explain the 3% difference in DNA between the Human race, and Apes?


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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:28 am 
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I'm not coming from the point of view of the Bible, nor any religion.

It's just God. He's just there.

I don't name my God, he's not Allah to me. He's just God. That power in the sky that no human eye, scientific or otherwise, can see.

God is someone who is always there, the light that shines into the hearts of millions. God is not a being, he cannot be disproved because God is simply a thought, an ideal by which many have lived for centuries.

God set down morals for humanity as a whole. Not for certain countries, cultures or religions. God left his own print in all of us, and is the reason why I say he left our morals in us. He, in the sky, is the one ideal that no matter how hard people try, they can never, ever, destroy.

God is untouchable, he is whatever people make him to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:30 am 
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In the bible, when it says to fear god, it doesn't mean to be scared of him. It means to have a fear of letting him down, how you fear your IRL father.

It's a wait till your father gets home kinda thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:38 am 
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Warforger wrote:
The Bible states that we should fear God, that at the same time we should also love him, why would we love someone who we fear? Must be some Middle Eastern way, I mean you should fear your Dad, so you don't rebel against him, you should also love him. Most of the Bible is contrary to what a lot of Christians believe it says, while it is true there are verses which say Gay's are an abomination, there also verses in the same exact book (Leviticus) that say Slavery is fine, as long as your not enslaving Israelites. I argued with my Mom about this, blatantly ignoring my arguments and saying 'The Old Testament is full of God's word being twisted, I meant there people, how can they be trusted?" then I replied 'Like Pastors?" (I was arguing that if you were a true Christian you'd read the Bible and decide for yourself when God's plan will go into motion, we shouldn't have someone else hand pick verses in the Bible which make it sound good and tell us what it means, total BS IMO.

As for "You can't prove God's there, but you can't prove he's not" this is largely meant to try to just settle the dispute, whats wrong with this is that we're trying to argue that just because millions of people believe in God that he has to be there. If I went forward and made a Scientific Theory which had no evidence, would this mean that you can't disprove it as let's say you had no evidence it was false? NO, if you have a theory then bring forth evidence to prove its true or otherwise your just making up ****.

EDIT: No 7, its not like Atheists are people who constantly break laws and shoot little children, we didn't base our morale's off God, as after all Muslims have entirely different Morales, as well as Israelite Jews, whose morale's and ways of life would frighten/disgust us Americans.

For example, if everyone read the Bible, they would know there is a lot of stuff in it which contradicts our morales.


You have a lot here and I have only one pointed comment so don't think I am ignoring you. The Old Testament is pre-messiah and the new testament lets Christians know there is a new law that includes all peoples. The fierce historical debate over what survives and what is surpassed by the appearance of Christ and his teachings is important. It was important to the disciples and the church that followed and is important today. God in the New Testament sends a new message with his Son so don't be too confused by Old Testament readings.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:51 am 
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-7- wrote:
I'm not coming from the point of view of the Bible, nor any religion.

It's just God. He's just there.

I don't name my God, he's not Allah to me. He's just God. That power in the sky that no human eye, scientific or otherwise, can see.

God is someone who is always there, the light that shines into the hearts of millions. God is not a being, he cannot be disproved because God is simply a thought, an ideal by which many have lived for centuries.

God set down morals for humanity as a whole. Not for certain countries, cultures or religions. God left his own print in all of us, and is the reason why I say he left our morals in us. He, in the sky, is the one ideal that no matter how hard people try, they can never, ever, destroy.

God is untouchable, he is whatever people make him to be.


If he was there, then is he invisible? We've reached the Moon, no sign of God in the sky.

As for the rest of the post, this seesms to be generally borderline, but it seems what your trying to say is, is that God exists in our minds?

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:55 am 
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I don't really attend church and stuff and that often, but if you could bear a bit of my pseudo-philosophical naivette, I believe it is time to speak my view.

We've got five senses, and we can't use those with optimal efficiency. The universe is far too wide for the small and inclusive eyes of mankind to fully ponder, so perhaps some underlying energy is behind it, but we may never know in our lifetimes...

P.S.: There is no evolution, God is just getting better at making people :D ! (Joke)

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:56 am 
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care to elaborate a bit more on that?


Patman I was just giving my personal opinion there and don't really think there's a need to elaborate. And I don't really care from abreviations people do when they type on the internet, text messages, etc., and really don't have a clue what imo stands for. I prefer to spell things out.

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Dayum,that's one wellspoken individual.


Thanks for the compliment there Skrakar. But I'm sure you would be able to talk as well if only you weren't a HUGE salivating ork.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:00 am 
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And I'm done on this thread. Just wanted to say what I had to say. Chears to all of you who continue this debate. I believe what I believe and don't care to dissuade or convert anyone to what I believe. Continue I say, for the sake of continuing . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 am 
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Likewise am I. My point was missed completely :|

God isn't a being, Forge.

He's a collective thought of your consciousness. You can't walk outside and look up at the sky and expect to see what? A giant figure with white hair and long matching beard? A white shining cross?

God is a thought. An ideal.

He has no physical body because he doesn't need one.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:33 am 
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Wait that's what I said......
Warforger wrote:

If he was there, then is he invisible? We've reached the Moon, no sign of God in the sky.

As for the rest of the post, this seesms to be generally borderline, but it seems what your trying to say is, is that God exists in our minds?


Soo basiclly, Religions false? That he's just exists in our minds? Just like Imaginary friends? Or are you using the 40k Gods logic where the more followers you have the more powerful you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Depression :( ( and religion discussion NO FLAME WARS )
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:59 am 
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Alright guys. As religious discussions go this has been a lot better than most. However it IS off topic from the OP. But more importantly I think for the sake of NOT having to warn people we can walk away from this and think about what was discussed. If you guys want, PM eachother or something. But this thread has flame bait written all over it and the last thing we need is more flaming. So, I'm going to lock it. However I think it's an interesting discussion so I'm going to put it in the Vault. Yes, the newly cleaned out Vault. :(

EDIT: Please don't unlock and post in locked threads. It's hardly fair and it sets a bad example.

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