Dawn of Warhammer 40,000: Firestorm Over Kaurava

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:30 pm 
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problem is that in TT you have a point limit for your army. In FoK we don't. thus we could keep adding nifty stuff to them and never stop until we have incredible awesome and expensive marines. while this whole trait thing is interesting in TT, I don't think we need most of it in this mod. Space Marines are awesome enough as is.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Take the fight to them costs nothing. Just add a CC troop choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:10 pm 
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I think that if you simply add a new squad like the one with the apothecary (Red Scorpions) when you select this trait could be a good adition.

Remember that:
Quote:
Any model with a bolter in a tactical squad who is not an independent character may exchange it for a bolt pistol and a CC weapon at no cost.


You can choose the normal squad or this one in the same way that we can choose the normal one or the squad with apothecary in the other trait.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:48 am 
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I like the idea of see but not be seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:34 am 
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CONDECOR wrote:
I think that if you simply add a new squad like the one with the apothecary (Red Scorpions) when you select this trait could be a good adition.

Remember that:
Quote:
Any model with a bolter in a tactical squad who is not an independent character may exchange it for a bolt pistol and a CC weapon at no cost.


You can choose the normal squad or this one in the same way that we can choose the normal one or the squad with apothecary in the other trait.


id rather have it all or nothing. keeps with the inflexibility of having just a bolter.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:52 am 
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We would be better off using Trust in your battle brothers then if we're giving everyone cc weps. Why would a dev squad take 4 Bolters/Chain swords or Sterns do that? The other one just makes sense for a tac squad to take em'. Hence a new squad of Tacs with Chainswords + BP like the BT have.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:31 am 
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Just give it a hard counter if you think its imbalancing. Space Wolves (originators of Trust in your Battle Brothers) have all sortsa negative aspects because of it. They will not use teleportation and they can only take the regular Land Raider. You can take a que from that and disable teleport abilities and the Orbital Relay (or whatever it was called).

Disabling units or limiting caps is a much bigger and more balanced tradeoff than just increasing build times or resource cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:30 am 
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Well they only have the regular LR in the codex because neither the crusader or redeemer were invented at the time. Their FAQ however, grants them all the new marine goodies.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Quote:
You can take a que from that and disable teleport abilities and the Orbital Relay (or whatever it was called).


Only Termys teleport. The orbital relay sends squads in via Drop Pod and Jump pack marines fly down... So no need to lock out that ;]

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Well they only have the regular LR in the codex because neither the crusader or redeemer were invented at the time.


The Black Templar codex never mentions Devestator squads if I remember correctly. I always brought to the table only what the codex allowed and my opponents were satisfied with the restriction.

Quote:
Only Termys teleport. The orbital relay sends squads in via Drop Pod and Jump pack marines fly down... So no need to lock out that ;]


Just brainstorming some suitable limitations for the traits. Can someone scan and post the part of the 4th Marine codex where it has the little deviation chart? The one where it has the Minor Deviation/Minor Drawback etc. I think it might clear up any issues people might have if this gets implemented.

I would prefer to see Deviations/Drawback combinations that can essentially create the core chapters instead of focusing on just adding cool stuff. No new models needed, just pick your paint job and chapter style and youre good to go. Much like you have chaos in the current public release. You can have your World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Just went through all 11 pages and can say this is a tough choice.


That's all . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:33 am 
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The off topic it burns!

Okay so I tried to stay on track for much of this but I am lost. From what I have gathered ONE (1) additional TRAIT is being added? Could we get a SINGLE mid discussion recap of where we are at.

Thanks. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:35 am 
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At the moment by the looks of the things the two traits that are possible are: Trust in your battle brothers (adds CC weps to all marines and needs a higher de buff) and Take the fight to them (Gives Tacs CC weps as upgrades so it would be like a Space Marines Black Templar CC squad minus the neophytes)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:36 am 
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Trust in your Battle Brothers also gives counter attack (you get +1 attack when assaulted). I dunno if that's codable though. For the debuff, it is only a minor divergence in the codex (one trait advantage), thus it only demands a minor drawback. Faithful unto death is a pretty heavy "minor" one as it disables one Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support slot.

If you want to use one of the major drawbacks, Flesh Over Steel looks pretty damaging and a bit easier to code. It would essentially limit the vehicles from your Machine cult to 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:45 am 
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We were thinking flesh over steel but instead having the build time of vehicles get multiplied by 1.5 or 2.0.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:58 am 
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Increased build time isn't very codex but I suppose it would be logical in the 200+ turn style this game simulates. It just seems to me that you would end up with the same army at the end as if the debuff didn't exist. By disabling the buttons after you get one vehicle on the field, you could still have devestators and it would... *feel* like Flesh Over Steel. Know what I mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:00 am 
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I agree, but the build time is easier to code and more practical. Perhaps the loss of land raiders or you only get one type might work.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:14 am 
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Well, the build time debuff in addition to only building the regular land raider and disabling the predator lascannon upgrades would be pretty damn close to codex.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:16 am 
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that's not a bad idea actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Space marines have up to three times the choice of some other armies. I would think they could do with sacrificing some options. In the end you can wait a long time and gain allot of resources just by doing nothing. But you can never get some lost choices back. That should be where people are looking.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Rocktober! wrote:
In the end you can wait a long time and gain allot of resources just by doing nothing. But you can never get some lost choices back.


Indeed, thus my initial interpretation. I almost always play my Second Legion space marines so don't think Im trying to be hard on this team in favor of another. The tricky part is translating 4E traits designed to give flavor into not only a 5E rule but also a pseudo 200+ round game. Table top is designed for around 6 rounds of play. Those 6 rounds would be over in about two minutes in DoW depending on how sneaky the players are.

The trick is to think of it as multiple games. You get so many of a unit per match. In Flesh Over Steel, you would get your single tank. The next match, you would get another tank (or keep the one ya had). While some things are disabled completely (no predator annihilator or land raider crusader) others are limited on a per-game basis.

The Trust in your Battle Brothers trait really isn't as powerful as you would think. If it was that powerful, everyone would be Space Wolves. Id like to see the other traits put in as well and if possible, have them in packages based on the chapter that birthed the traits. That would be a much easier method of balancing in my opinion.

Id also like to see this for the other races as well. Catachan guardsmen, craftworld eldar, lost and the damned, etc. A long way off and a lot of work, I know. Just hoping. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Perhaps I missed my own point a little. If we took that CC swapping trait and FoK'ed it up so it would replace full tactical squads as they are now with the option of having the unit spawn with a melee oriented purpose as opposed to shooting and removed the option of making normal tacticals then it could work and we have solved our beef right there.

I'm saying once you have picked that option you cannot go back from the rest of the game. That is what I meant by losing options. It would not be instantly OP if we had both squads available but it would give marines to many options at once. I'm all for adding options to marines to make them specialized but with those divergences should come drawbacks even if we have to nudge them in ourselves. The option to make your own chapter is awesome but must come with a drawback.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:38 pm 
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Why the hell would we do that? There's no cries that BT and CSM are OP'd because of that are there? Its not gamebreaking so I don't think we should really give into the cries of "OMG OP'D!"

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:51 pm 
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Rock are you saying you would remove normal tac squads to get CC ones? I just wanna make sure because if that's true that'd cripples marines. No one who plays marines wants an 100% CC army that would be ridiculous. Also like warforger said with Trust in your battle brothers the Space Marines melee would be the same as chaos. Which is not op, if we go with bring the fight to them we would add a CC Squad (like the black templars) for Space Marines to buy not remove ranged tacs O.o. Marines you could say get a B- in all types of fighting but don't specialize in anything. If we added CC to the normal troops and then increased build time and reduced some options it would be more like a A- in troops a C- in vehicles. You're basically choosing to use troops over a mech army.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:58 pm 
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If you're doing that kinda of army its common knowledge anyway to use rhino's.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:17 pm 
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When the traits where first added it was kind of a way for people to make there own chapter. It's obvious no other chapters will be added like the BT's so this is a valid and awesome thing to add to marines.

When you choose a divergence you are going out of your way to experience a different play style. The four we added in Internal version did not change the army layout to much so nothing needed to be changed/added/taken away. You spent resources and in return got:

1. Fleet - Faster marines via a toggled ability called fleet.(Which had its built in downside of not allowing your men to fire if you forgot fleet on)

2. Master Crafted Armoury - Pay the price you get increased damage on flamers and melta weapons and increased accuracy on thunder hammer weapons. (In order to use this effectively you need to focus on these specific weapons) Not an outrageous downside but the added damages are not that game breaking as they effect already powerful/effective/short ranged weapons.

3. Hold the Line! - Pay the cash and get increased morale for your army and stern guard are upgraded to be able to capture points on the maps. (Not a very exciting divergence at a glance but it allows this player to do some things fellow marines cannot. Again adds small but characterful options to game play.

4. Outflank - Infantry and transports have a passive speed bonus. Once again not OP at all, and is the least noticeable of the traits. But a VERY useful one. Beat your fellow allied marines to the relic right of the bat on every major battle. :)

New addition
5. Apothecaries-

The apothecaries were added as an option for tactical squad leaders and we have the option to build both right now. Not OP at all because in taking an apothecary you lose out on melta bombs from having a sarge in the squad. (Also worth noting that the healing effects his squad only (Coders confirm?) so you cannot have 2 medic squads healing other squads while the sarge squads use melta bombs.

Now progress...
What is wrong with removing full tactical squads when adding close combat tactical goodness. You still have combat squads with bolters and heavy weapons. Your army would just prefer close combat. Does not in any way cripple marines in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Actually if we did this combat squads would need to be edited as well. Plus when you replace the bolters you don't get special or heavy weapons. It makes no sense to take out all ranged tacs. For one that isn't one of the de buffs (and that is in fact a MASSIVE debuff) Even a khorne army has csm to support it. We all know that a full CC army rarely wins at anything. Even more so becuase the Space Marines wouldn't be specialized in it. They would be on par with a normal CSM and could still easily be demolished by dedicated CC Squads (Scorpions, Khorne Zerks, Nobs). If we do add just a normal Space Marines CC squad it will be like the apothecary thing, a new squad then the debuff will be something minor. If we choose trust in your battle brothers it will be a foked version of flesh over steel.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:31 pm 
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Quote:
Why the hell would we do that? There's no cries that BT and CSM are OP'd because of that are there? Its not gamebreaking so I don't think we should really give into the cries of "OMG OP'D!"


BT arent even a proper balanced race for all situations. they are more CC than even the blood angels, who do get access to decent devastator squads and ranged weapon options.

so far Black templars are quite meh for multi tasking.

Chaos doesn't have access to all those razorback transports either with assault cannons lascannons and such, sure you could say that we get daemons but even still that's heavily limited and still costs infantry cap. transports arent limited by regular cap and you can take them anyway regardless of how many troops you have.

you either replace all the bolters for CCW and bolt pistol for tacticals, devastators and such, or you don't at all. that was the reasoning for allowing it, because the ranged firepower is nerfed a lot when you fight against more shootier opponents.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:42 pm 
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You also get marks, with far more effective HQ's and battle cannons. plus cheaper CSM.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:46 pm 
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That doesn't really reflect the TT rule at all. It gives you the option of doing so but it doesn't force you to simply give up on bolters. The CC squads are meant to support you meager Space Marines CC FA choices. (Considering they all cost a **** load of req to put out minus assault squads which can die easily later on. ASM vangaurds really aren't much of an improvement and when people concentrate fire on them you can lose 1000's of req in seconds) They are the only race that don't have CC troop choices. Orks (All of them basically) Imperial Guard (Inquisition allies, Grey Knights are vastly superior to vanguard asm and they cost less even inq stormtroopers have better CC than Space Marines) CSM (Khorne, even basic CSM are better at CC then normal Space Marines) Eldar (Storm guardians can support banshees/scorpions) Necrons (Again normal troops already have great CC then you can use those zombie ones) Tau (Kroot/Krootox all of the kroot troops basically) BT (Have a CC squad to support their Sword Bretheren which are an elite not FA choice) Now both of the Space Marines traits we're talking about give the option of CC this does not OP space marines it basically puts them on par with Chaos and the rest of the races. With flesh over steel the Space Marines would then lose some kind of vehicle support hence making sure that they're most certainly not OP and it shows you want a more infantry based army which your opponent can then counter etc etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Scott wrote:
Actually if we did this combat squads would need to be edited as well.


Why would they need to be edited? :?

Scott wrote:
Plus when you replace the bolters you don't get special or heavy weapons.


Well that would compromise the purpose of the squad. This would also be a waste of coin.

Scott wrote:
It makes no sense to take out all ranged tacs.


Depends on the chapter your trying to replicate. We could limit ranged tacticals...



Scott wrote:
For one that isn't one of the de buffs (and that is in fact a MASSIVE debuff) Even a khorne army has csm to support it.




Well when you take one of an armies weaknesses and turn it into a full on strength then the powerfull squads that used to help offset that weakness triplicate there strength. Terminators and vanguards become uber powerfull when there is an entire chapter in close combat with them now as opposed to just them and the odd hero and dreadnought as dedicated combat units.



Scott wrote:
We all know that a full CC army rarely wins at anything. Even more so becuase the Space Marines wouldn't be specialized in it. They would be on par with a normal CSM and could still easily be demolished by dedicated CC Squads (Scorpions, Khorne Zerks, Nobs).


Chances are they would be specialized in CC after choosing this. 3 Scorpion squads for instance (Max elite cap allowed) would be no mach for up to 6 squads of marines dedicated to CC Plus There now very effective support close combat units like vanguards.

Give me some time to counter your latest post. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:00 pm 
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1. By Horus's reasoning it all or nothing so you wouldn't get ranged combat squads.

2.Without some sort of ranged support your only average CC troops would get ripped to pieces by Killa Kanz/Termies/Anything that is decent with CC or artillery.

3.Again there is no actual debuff that says no tac squads. This is all in the 4th ed codex.

4. A full CC army is easily fended off with a heavy artillery (Imperial Guard, Tau) and races who don't have that would already have better CC (Chaos, Orks). The point is to make the Space Marines more rounded off not to have them go 110% CC as they aren't meant to do that.

5. 3 squads of banshees could probably take our 6 squads of CC'd Space Marines with support from storm guardians or a wraithlord. Banshee's also destroy vanguards even when upgraded to power weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Scott I do appreciate your wanting the Space Marines to be kickass..... BUT

Quote:
this does not OP space marines it basically puts them on par with Chaos and the rest of the races.


this makes it seem as if Space Marines are not competitive and need a buff. we all can agree that they don't.

Quote:
They are the only race that don't have CC troop choices. Tau (Kroot/Krootox all of the kroot troops basically)
Kroot are not exactly a great example of a CC unit, you do realize? anyway, do Space Marines need CC troop choices? they were doing pretty fine without em so far. they have their CC choices and they are not that bad, just not as good as your specialzed aspect warriors. and that is how a space marine army should play. good allrounders.

EDIT: I don't think this should be a balance discussion rather than a fluff discussion. after all you guys want to add CC tactical squads because you can then imagine yourself as Blood Angels, etc. and because of the different style of play not because you can't compete with the oh so great forces of chaos....
anyway Horus has already said his share on it. a trait with CC tacticals INSTEAD of ranged tacticals. nuff said I suppose :D

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Well first point was just showing that it wouldn't shove them over the edge and make Space Marines warrior gods it would just allow some of the same options and I agree as they are now they are still a fantastic race to play.

I do realize Kroot aren't amazing but that's why you mass them to tangle up units with your broadsides wtfpwn everything else :P. The debuff of making Space Marines a more infantry oriented race would keep them from becoming too powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Scott wrote:
1. By Horus's reasoning it all or nothing so you wouldn't get ranged combat squads.


Not to sure I would go that far personally. There is no chapter that stupid. :shock:

Scott wrote:
2.Without some sort of ranged support your only average CC troops would get ripped to pieces by Killa Kanz/Termies/Anything that is decent with CC or artillery.


Again that is just the mega meat shield effect. Your mass of CC tacs rush in then your precious elite vanguard and termies and even dread plummet from the sky/transport/teleport and recive NO DAMAGE! That is the OP part I'm worried about TBH.

Scott wrote:
3.Again there is no actual debuff that says no tac squads. This is all in the 4th ed codex.


You must also understand that marines had NO Vanguard vets or sternguard last edition and were even weaker in CC theoretically. They are now given the option of using a fast attack choice to bring in a dedicated CC unit while other teams like eldar needed to use an elite choice to bring in a decent (still weaker than vanguard) close combat specialist squad. Now that those two cancel each other out you still have a giga force of terminators lying in wait.

Scott wrote:
A full CC army is easily fended off with a heavy artillery (Imperial Guard, Tau) and races who don't have that would already have better CC (Chaos, Orks).


Although for reasons stated above marines are quite capable of avoiding artillery. Transports being a big cause as well as dropping etc.


Scott wrote:
The point is to make the Space Marines more rounded off not to have them go 110% CC as they aren't meant to do that.


Space marines are pretty rounded off. The object here is to add a different play style to the marines army. Give and take.

Don't want to seem like i am picking on you your just the only one posting back. :)


*Edit ahhhh my wall text has been beaten by a few posters!

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:23 pm 
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No worries Rock I know you're not picking on me XD. A discussion is a discussion :P.

1. Well I agree there but I don't agree with no tacs, considering 10 ranged combat squads are just more mico managing and leave the same effect as 5 normal tac squads.

2. Also I wouldn't say no damage there, safe to say your opponent wont have left his base just open to be raped.

3. Vanguards/Sterns just split up from vets to make two unique branches. So yes you could say they were a bit more gimped back then but overall the choices are the same. (We could always just use the rule that makes ASM/Vanguard elite choices ;) ) <=== Would be a CC rule

4. Issue with mass tacs is one well places earthshaker round and there goes 2 squads of your CC tacs which are still not all that cheap.

5. I agree but what I guess im trying to say is that instead of a full CC army this would allow for a more infantry over mech army actually. If we went with Trust in your battle brothers and used flesh over steel this would leave you with stronger infantry but actually upon thinking about it only one vehicle and maybe would only allow rhinos to be built. So yeah while you have buff infantry you have few vehicles which changes the battle more than straight CC.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
1. By Horus's reasoning it all or nothing so you wouldn't get ranged combat squads.

2.Without some sort of ranged support your only average CC troops would get ripped to pieces by Killa Kanz/Termies/Anything that is decent with CC or artillery.

3.Again there is no actual debuff that says no tac squads. This is all in the 4th ed codex.

4. A full CC army is easily fended off with a heavy artillery (Imperial Guard, Tau) and races who don't have that would already have better CC (Chaos, Orks). The point is to make the Space Marines more rounded off not to have them go 110% CC as they aren't meant to do that.


i didn't say anything about not having special and heavy weapons. just that if you do decide to take heavy weapons then your going to be wasting that squad if you decide to go melee. that doesn't matter to much because they can still take out tanks and heavier opponents with them. and even still your not at a disadvantage when you can take melta guns and plasma guns too.

also here youre taking in to account just infantry. i look at the bigger picture, and i see razorbacks, lascnnons preds and heck even dreads and whirlwinds. there should be no way on the same level youd get your ass handed too you because of an artillery type army. you would do even better becuase you want to get your troops to them, and the artillery arent as much as a threat when your moving about.

im also taking into account that squads are equipped with just bolter and a CCW.

this way its still limited as such.

Quote:
3 squads of banshees could probably take our 6 squads of CC'd Space Marines with support from storm guardians or a wraithlord. Banshee's also destroy vanguards even when upgraded to power weapons.
so. if banshees got to you anyway with ranged tacts, theyd still waste your squad.

the only thing different is the rules of engagement changed. you can't expect a squad of khorne berzerkers to massacre a banshee squad. they arent designed to be wasted in such a fashion. they are meant to bully and aggravate other more feeble opponents and hold up the more powerful ones in turn.

Quote:
(Inquisition allies, Grey Knights are vastly superior to vanguard asm and they cost less even inq stormtroopers have better CC than Space Marines)


inquisition arent even technically part of the Imperial Guard army and so im discounting that. besides they wont be there for much longer anyway.

Quote:
Well I agree there but I don't agree with no tacs, considering 10 ranged combat squads are just more mico managing and leave the same effect as 5 normal tac squads.


i never said anything about no tactical squads. just that if you decide to to choose the close combat option, then everything that has a bolter by default, (except sternguard obviously) should just have a bolt pistol and CCW by default.

that's tacticals and devastators and what ever else i havent mentioned. other than upgrades ofcourse.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:39 pm 
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So Horus maybe I am confused here by have CCW and bolt pistol by default you mean in addition to the bolter and normal war gear ? Also if we went with flesh over steel that would eliminate (potentially) most Space Marines vehicles bar rhinos and leave you to choose one vehicle then use devs.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:48 pm 
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I don't get what the big issue is with letting marines have bolters and CC weapons. There are lots of times where I would play as Chaos and hear the telltale "incomming" and find three survivors of my squad and a blotch of red infantry. Trust your Battle Brothers is a defensive trait (counter attack, CC weapon). The only situation where it would be a big deal is if guardsmen or Tau get in a fist fight with you. Past that, it will just tie up the enemy a little longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Well it is not codex for one. I hate saying that but it is not and takes away from a chaos space marine advantage.

That is why it needs to be a trait etc with a disadvantage.

Also Horus I am still not quite grasping the only bolter thing. Please explain?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Space Marines have bolters and bolt pistol as default correct?

you choose the close combat and it switches the bolter for a close combat weapon.

not too hard to understand is it?.

the confusion here is that it should add a close combat weapon in addition to bolt pistol and bolter, to make them equal with CSM.

im saying that it shouldn't be. your either flat out melee or not.

Scott is arguing that it will debuff the army a lot when in fact it wont. i use CSM like this all the time, normal marines with special weapons in close combat. the bolter and ranged combat is rarely used aside from my havoc squads. i know full well how it would affect the army.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:17 pm 
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@rock :Both of the rules are codex. Just 4th edition. I posted it a page back or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Sorry was referring to the other post by RyoOjin.

I am to fond of Horus proposed all or nothing to be honest. I am sorta close to what he wants but it is such a leap from here to there.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:37 pm 
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So Horus, you are only opposed to Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit, not Tacs with CCW's/Bolt Pistols?

Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit would only be as powerful as CSM are now, and at a cost of 3 points per model, which in FoK is 15 extra req, which is a lot considering Tacs are already 80 req. 95 req per Space Marines for parity with CSM in terms of versatility, plus a serious debuff to vehicles if combined with "Flesh Over Steel" is a lot. I'm not sure what vehicles "Flesh Over Steel" prohibits, but I know it only allows a single Predator with no lascannon upgrades, no Land Raider Crusaders, plus all Land Raiders are a 0-1 choice, and I'm not sure what else. More expensive Tacs, plus fewer vehicles mean Space Marines are actually less versatile if that trait is implemented. They end up with fewer armored vehicles. Sure Space Marines will still have Dreads, Termies, and Razorbacks, but getting a Razorback means less heavy weapons because they require a Combat Squad, and getting a Dread means getting one less Terminator squad. And Space Marines Tacs may not even get all of the bonuses since I'm not sure Counter-attack can be implemented in FoK. A penalty to vehicle build time, plus fewer vehicle choices will seriously gimp any Space Marines army that chooses this trait.

The rules may even prohibit CCW/Bolt Pistol Tacs from getting heavy/special weapons since the rules state Tacs must exchange a bolter to get a heavy or special weapon, and they have no bolters to exchange for heavy/special weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:51 pm 
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I stick with the extra cc squad choice as "take the fight to them" advantage, with the lose of "combat tactics" for the entire army as "death before dishonour" drawback, keeping it as a minor divergence chapter tactic.

there is absolutely no OP in it, the only difference is that the squad can deal double of damage in melee at the cost of their bolter....that's enough balance imo......and wouldnt be much different of using regular tacticals to tie up enemies in melee, the mayor plus on it is that it would look cooler because of the chainswords.

Or heck put together "Trust you battle brothers" with "Take the fight to them"
since both are advantages of different traits then we need 1 mayor drawback "Flesh over Steel" and 1 minor drawback "Die Standing"

- tactical, devastators and sternguard squads get extra cc weapon and counter attack for 3pts per model
- assault squads and vanguard squads get counter attack for 3pts per model
- cannot build orbital relay
- cannot build land raider crusaders, prometheus nor redeemer
- cannot upgrade predators turret to lascannons
- predators, whirlwind, vindicators and land raiders build time at 2x

there you have Mayor Divergent Chapter Tactic focused on foot/jump infantry with more than average cc skills

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:56 pm 
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I vote for Meloo

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:59 pm 
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2x vehicle build penalty seems a bit steep. 1.5x build time perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Quote:
So Horus, you are only opposed to Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit, not Tacs with CCW's/Bolt Pistols?


im opposed to things that would make the coding a lot more complicated and such a waste too.

as ive said countless times and will do, is that the tactic only needs to switch the bolter for a combat weapon. there's no need to overcomplicate things further and add redundent coding. the switch around for the bolter is drawback enough, which i still don't see how others are going wrong on that :roll:

all this vehicle mongery and cost increases for squads that arent really meant to have it is just a waste of time and pc resources. i made up my mind a while ago and for good reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:55 am 
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SpardaSon21 wrote:
So Horus, you are only opposed to Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit, not Tacs with CCW's/Bolt Pistols?

Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit would only be as powerful as CSM are now


Sure, but they're not Chaos Space Marines. Codex Chapters (all Marine forces that use the Space Marine race) fight in an entirely different manner. Some Codex Chapters are more aggressive than others and trade out their bolter for a close combat weapon, but even still they're not as good as Chaos Space Marines.

All in all, a tactical Space Marine is not the equal of a Chaos Marine and probably never should be. There's the whole massive difference in years of experience thing, plus the fact that Chaos Marines are oftentimes armed to the teeth with a weapon for every situation since they're no longer bound by the Codex Astartes.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:58 am 
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We took this to MSN earlier and made some progress. No one bothered to post it though. :shock:

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