Dawn of Warhammer 40,000: Firestorm Over Kaurava

The definitive Table Top conversion mod for Dawn of War.
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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Okay, noted.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm 
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Vaz wrote:
It is a CHOICE, of being able to swap, it's not a requirement that they do. So like the Purity Above all option currently allows the Apothecary SMS' AND the Standard SMS', you should be able to build both.

The rules is upgrade a Sergeant to Apothecary, not get an Apothecary for the squad. I am not exactly sure where you are getting this idea both should be present other then meaning an offering 2 different Tactical squad build icons- one that the Fluffy Leaders adds an Apothecary and one that starts them with a regular Sergeant. Sort of like Upgrading on Ork Boy to Nob, or more like this case upgrading a Nob to a Mad Dok.

Katie Drake wrote:
Take the Fight to Them, I think (swap out bolters for close combat weapons, essentially giving Tactical Marines bolt pistols and close combat weapons).

Where is that one found? I have not encountered any materials since the latest Marines codex that indicated any beyond Assault Squads or Vanguard Marines have access to such a set up.

That is excepting if one goes with the Black Templars. Or maybe in October when the Space Wolves codex hits. Or uses the army list for Blood Angels. All 3 of which are not Codex Astartes adherents, so would not be expected to be well-represented by a version of Marines that does follow that set up.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:04 pm 
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West that one is in the 4th edition. It would be that or True Grit. (Gives Dev's CC weps as well but costs 3 points a model = 15 req)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Just a point but I'm sure its possible to swap weapons over with the press of a button in Soulstorm.

I interpret the rules as this:

Any TSM squad can swap his standard weapons for CC weapon and pistol at any time once the chapter tactic has been chosen. Now instead of having to build 2 different squads [one CC and one normal], I propose this...

Back in the day, there was various issues with Nade/Missile launchers [and other weapons] having different fire modes. There is code in Soulstorm to change a weapon with a toggle ability. For example to change a missile launcher from firing frag warheads to krak warheads. So surly this can be applied to TSM with this chapter tactic to swap weapons over?

Although this makes another problem. Can you have 2 toggle abilities that change weapons on one squad?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm 
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Scott wrote:
West that one is in the 4th edition. It would be that or True Grit. (Gives Dev's CC weps as well but costs 3 points a model = 15 req)

By that same line of thinking then, 4th edition did not offer Veteran Marines more then one Special weapon upgrade or Sternguard ammunition types, so we should pull the those 5th edition elements of Veterans and only offer the 4th Edition Vets from the Marines if such an option is taken. That is the conditions under which that rule operates.

See that is the thing, you cannot just pick a particular rule out and treat it as if there is no context that it is found in. That is kind of dishonest in approach when it comes to the game if you implement rules you like while at the same time leave out consideration where they came from and how they come from a different place. More so when you pick out of the likes of non-canon materials like Bolter and Chainsword, you are making things more removed.

At what point can anyone definitively say what is or is not permissible when individuals assert their opinions on things rather then the given rules? And no, this is not a Table Top uber alles take on things.

You might find it an overwrought thinking, but playing a game like 40k or FoK entail something of an implicit social contract where in the rules are taken as given, for better or worse. Can you alter or change things if the game is found wanting, but there needs to be not only probable cause to take on such endeavors, but also careful consideration of implementation.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Mosh4Life wrote:
Just a point but I'm sure its possible to swap weapons over with the press of a button in Soulstorm.

I interpret the rules as this:

Any TSM squad can swap his standard weapons for CC weapon and pistol at any time once the chapter tactic has been chosen. Now instead of having to build 2 different squads [one CC and one normal], I propose this...

Back in the day, there was various issues with Nade/Missile launchers [and other weapons] having different fire modes. There is code in Soulstorm to change a weapon with a toggle ability. For example to change a missile launcher from firing frag warheads to krak warheads. So surly this can be applied to TSM with this chapter tactic to swap weapons over?

Although this makes another problem. Can you have 2 toggle abilities that change weapons on one squad?


However, those Toggle abilities don't being into the equation that the Bolter is Lost by these troops. I'm also not sure if the animations could be rigged to it. The only way I currently know of to change between entities is the Possession and Entrench function, Entrench being useless because it stops the unit from moving, and Possession causes trouble if we're trying to get things like Heroes in, especially for the Campaign.

Also, changes apply to the whole squad.

As for the toggle ability... I can see working like -

Enable_Hardpoint_1, being the Bolter,

And Ability which disables hardpoint_1, and enabled hardpoints_2.

For weapon upgrades, though, they replace certain hardpoints. Which is why we have trouble with changing things like Twin Linked Shootaz to Combi Weapons which are Shoota/Combi Scorcha'z etc.

Thinking about Missile Launchers, their AP is 3, which has no additional effect.

You could leave the Armour value as 0 against things which it automatically penetrates (AP3 or less), but change the Generic Armour_Piercing value of it to penetrate the same against those with '0'. It can harm everything, after all.

The toggle ability could then modify the Missile Launcher to have a blast range, damage and AP of a Frag Missile... But that still presents the ability for a Str 4 Missile to have the same penetration properties against a Heavy Armour 4 unit that a Str 8 AP3 Missile has... Fucks sake...

And you can't toggle the unit to disable Hardpoint 1, and Enable Hardpoint_3, because then even non_missile armed troops would have Frag Missiles... She-it... I'm stuck... Maybe Gorb or MK, or Melooo or some other Code wiz can help me out.
Dr West wrote:
Vaz wrote:
It is a CHOICE, of being able to swap, it's not a requirement that they do. So like the Purity Above all option currently allows the Apothecary SMS' AND the Standard SMS', you should be able to build both.

The rules is upgrade a Sergeant to Apothecary, not get an Apothecary for the squad. I am not exactly sure where you are getting this idea both should be present other then meaning an offering 2 different Tactical squad build icons- one that the Fluffy Leaders adds an Apothecary and one that starts them with a regular Sergeant. Sort of like Upgrading on Ork Boy to Nob, or more like this case upgrading a Nob to a Mad Dok.


The rules is Choose to Upgrade a Veteran Sergeant in a SMS (AKA Space Marine Squad). Hence you choose when building squads to shell out 600 Req for an Apothecary Squad, or 450 Req for a Veteran Sergeant Squad.

So, you're allowed to build both Apothecary Space Marine Squads, AND Standard Space Marine Squads. Really, it's not that hard to understand, and I expected more from you, Mr. West ;D

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Last edited by Vaz on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:30 pm 
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West we already talked about this with Horus and that's the rule that's going to be implemented. Focus on how to add it best now.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Meloo's been looking at this mod for a good 20 mins... I expect a big post from him any time soon...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Take the fight to them
Any model with a bolter in a tactical squad, who is not an independent character, may exchange it for a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon at no extra cost.


in 5th ed, tactical marines already have bolt pistols, so they would only swap their bolter for a cc weapon.....that has little to no repercussion on veterans.

Since the Trait Advantage clearly says "MAY EXCHANGE" is completely optional, so the best way to implement is by adding an extra tactical squad like "Red Scorpions" Chapter Tactic but with CC weapons instead of bolters....though they should remain with the rest of the options a tactical squad has...ei 1 SW and 1 HW when the squads has 10 members.

now this doesn't seem to bring any imbalance and could be taken with the Minor Drawback of "Death before Dishonour", the Odd rules of rolling for an extra turn could be perfectly replaced as the Loss of "Combat Tactics" which fits more with the fluff description of this drawback and is a common effect by legal Chapter Tactics.

Vaz wrote:
Meloo's been looking at this mod for a good 20 mins... I expect a big post from him any time soon...

you spying on me or something? xD

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Melooo wrote:
now this doesn't seem to bring any imbalance and could be taken with the Minor Drawback of "Death before Dishonour", the Odd rules of rolling for an extra turn could be perfectly replaced as the Loss of "Combat Tactics" which fits more with the fluff description of this drawback and is a common effect by legal Chapter Tactics.


Exactly! Thank you for thinking outside the box. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:33 pm 
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@Melooo: So no chance of having it as a toggle ability like the plans for missile launchers in Soulstorm?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:37 pm 
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are we really planning that missile launcher swap thing? cause I don't think it's worth the micromanagement. and I believe it's already somewhat implemented by mixing Armour Penetration values from both variants......

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Patman42 wrote:
are we really planning that missile launcher swap thing? cause I don't think it's worth the micromanagement. and I believe it's already somewhat implemented by mixing Armour Penetration values from both variants......


the mixed armour pen was an experiment which i have to say has turned out very well IMO....since its working and doesn't involve micromanagement at all....we could say that the swaping missiles thing is to ditched.

about a swaping ability on tac squad That would be really IMBA!....cause you would have a Uber tactical squad which not only has bolters but can also swap to extra CC weapon when needed.....im sorry but no to that idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:48 pm 
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How about the Vanquisher different ammo types [IIRC it used to have that, might not now in 5th Ed.]?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Mosh4Life wrote:
How about the Vanquisher different ammo types [IIRC it used to have that, might not now in 5th Ed.]?


It only has one ammunition type now, which is really unfortunate and rather stupid imo, but them's the rules. I'd be wary of adding in the normal battle cannon shells for balance reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Possibly for ArCo... I'd like to see things like Auger Rounds being present etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Here's a thought for a Chapter Trait....

ANGRY MARINES!

Even have a codex to back me up!

Discuss :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:57 am 
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Mirage Knight wrote:
Here's a thought for a Chapter Trait....

ANGRY MARINES!

Even have a codex to back me up!

Discuss :mrgreen:


It's not funny anymore. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:07 am 
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(don't know if this was posted before)
maybe different rounds for sternguard?(like vengeance, flux, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:20 am 
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-_- first of all not a trait. Secondly already in :P.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:15 am 
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Scott wrote:
-_- first of all not a trait.

knew that, but didn't want to make a whole new topic on asking it. in other words...
3.5 come to me nao!

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:01 am 
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=l4d=knifepocket wrote:
knew that, but didn't want to make a whole new topic on asking it. in other words...
3.5 come to me nao!

What he said :D

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:08 am 
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Melooo wrote:

about a swaping ability on tac squad That would be really IMBA!....cause you would have a Uber tactical squad which not only has bolters but can also swap to extra CC weapon when needed.....im sorry but no to that idea.


Would it? CSM already have both and there not really imba......

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:29 am 
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CSM are also rather limited in their options. Space Marines meanwhile are capable of 62 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields and all sorts of goodies, which while not carrying across so much into TT, in FoK, it's game changing.

Space Marines are strong enough early game as they are already, and just giving them Bolters and a weapon swap is enough to make even Orks think twice about Spamming Slugga Boys at them.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:33 am 
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Well its not like Good Ork players spam Sluggaz anyway, they all do the AI dance with Kanz, except they put them with the infantry and nobz so its harder.

Dude, really? CSM are nowhere near limited in there options, you have fun with your thunder hammers (which quite honestly don't perform any better most of the time then powerfists) we'll have fun with 32 Chainfists, MUCH more viable.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:28 pm 
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62 Powerfists > 32 Chainfists, especially when they're backed up by a 3+/3++

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:23 pm 
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So your basing your argument off a max out thunder hammer army which uses the most expensive units in the army, with 1000 req price tags for the Termi's to give you 5 men, and 1000 req price tag to get you storm shields (IIRC, although I don't use Vanguard much mainly because the build times makes them nonviable).

Now tell me how CSM are limited in there options. If anything there the least limited out of all the races.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Space Marines are much less prone to get morale broken than CSM and even if broken they can still fight in melee normally due of the "and they shall know no fear" thing.

I exaggerated a bit with the "IMBA!!!" expression but a free CC weapons + bolter and Bolt pistol + "and they shall know no fear" in exchange of only combat tactics seems like a bit too good.....the CC weapon should have cost then.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Oi we talked about this. We were going to use the true grit rule. +3 points per model for devs/tac so they get CC weps and vehicle building times were going to be multiplied by 1.5/2. (Flesh over Steel)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Melooo wrote:
Space Marines are much less prone to get morale broken than CSM and even if broken they can still fight in melee normally due of the "and they shall know no fear" thing.



Which in FoK doesn't really mean much, and its still pretty rare for a CSM to even lose morale after all he still has higher morale then a Space Marines actually (IIRC a CSM is Ld9 whiled the aspiring champ is Ld10, as opposed to Space Marines being Ld8 and Sergeants being Ld9). Having a chainsword more then makes up for the loss IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 pm 
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Scott wrote:
Oi we talked about this. We were going to use the true grit rule. +3 points per model for devs/tac so they get CC weps and vehicle building times were going to be multiplied by 1.5/2. (Flesh over Steel)

Sorry i scanned the previous pages and didn't saw any of this aside horus post of marines with bolt pistols and CC weapons as the most viable choice.....anyway none of this is set on stone.

That "Flesh over steel" interpretation seems a bit odd, 1.5/2 = 0.75 so would actually make vehicles build in less time.... would be more like buildtime x 1.5
But also "Flesh over Steel" is a major Draw Back right? which according to the 4th ed codex are only taken if the Chapter has 2 Advantages.

Also "Trust your battle brothers" gives "True Grit" and "Counter Attack" for 3pts per model not only one of them. "true grit" is an 4th ed rule that no longer exists in 5th ed rulebook, i guess it was replaced by giving extra CC weapons...as was done with CSM....even though Chaos Chaos Codex was a 4th one. "Counter-Attack" is much more useful in 5th ed giving +1A when being charged, in 4th ed was what "pile in" cc rule does now.

The only representation of counter attack in FoK is banshees' melee leap, not a very good one....though it can change to better with Soulstorm code of abilities triggered only in melee.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Quote:
That "Flesh over steel" interpretation seems a bit odd, 1.5/2 = 0.75 so would actually make vehicles build in less time.... would be more like buildtime x 1.5

i think he means multiply em with 1.5 or 2, whichever is better for balance.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:27 am 
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What Pat said.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 pm 
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"Trust Your Battle Brothers" was my favorite trait in 4th so I would like to see it again. My opponent never had a problem with the universal increase in CC power without decreasing my ranged power because I would take disadvantages like not having psykers or deep strike abilities. CC that needs to run through enemy fire to do their job is a ton less effective than say... a squad of terminators popping in behind their lines.

While I would prefer this trait, the proposed toggle for bolt pistol/CC and bolter would satisfy my bloodlust. Heck, Id just like to see the 4th traits so people can pretty much bring any chapter concept into the game (instead of the Ultrasmurfs) without adding more races.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Melooo wrote:
Scott wrote:
Oi we talked about this. We were going to use the true grit rule. +3 points per model for devs/tac so they get CC weps and vehicle building times were going to be multiplied by 1.5/2. (Flesh over Steel)
Sorry i scanned the previous pages and didn't saw any of this aside horus post of marines with bolt pistols and CC weapons as the most viable choice.....anyway none of this is set on stone.
...


Now remember Melooo, you just made it that Close Combat weapons do more damage then if they shoot the same weapon, i.e. Bolt Pistols. So now increased damage values when combined with being able to trade a Boltgun for a second Close Combat weapon you add +1 attacks to Tactical Squad Marines. In the end that means that Tactical squads can now get 2 attacks a round(Sarge has 3) with a Bolt Pistol profile and can do more damage then that same Marine standing and shooting the Boltgun with Rapid Fire even though both have the same profile. At least in FoK. In Table Top those 2 Attacks with Bolt Pistol+1 Close Combat weapon would have the same effects in Close Combat as a Rapid Fire Boltgun when it comes to Wounding.

This is were an exploit develops in FoK from an untended consequence merged with a rule intentionally dropped going from 4th to 5th edition of the Marines. If you thought this was an unbalancing effect earlier, then it is more so now.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:38 pm 
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see it this way... you trade the bolter for a close combat weapon. you then loose the range of the bolter. tacticals squads have less use of heavy weapons because they are more CC orientated. plus you loose out on probably the most chosen tactic which is master crafted hammers and such.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Ill have to look but I don't think they trade their bolters for one they just receive a CC weapon. This just basically puts them on par with csm.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:41 pm 
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no, its an actual trade off.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Well that's alright then its no worse then a Black Templar CC squad or a squad of Storm Guardians.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Horus wrote:
see it this way... you trade the bolter for a close combat weapon. you then loose the range of the bolter. tacticals squads have less use of heavy weapons because they are more CC orientated. plus you loose out on probably the most chosen tactic which is master crafted hammers and such.

Here are some more things to see.

If you recall they still shoot those Bolt Pistols for their range. Also a Marine player could then pick up a pair of Flamers that will still give them some nice range leading into fight. Plus you are over looking the whole of the rest of the army. If we just look at the Cap slot of Troops, this allows me to buy a Close Combat optimized Tactical squad or two, and have them Run into fights tossing Frags while the rest of the Troop cap can be normally equipped Marines who pile on shots. Between the extra damage from those 2 CC-Tac squads and the shots I can pile on form other squads, this a a very real exploit. So what if you lose out on other Tactics? If you play this Tactic to its fullest, this Tactics would make them pale in comparison
Scott wrote:
Ill have to look but I don't think they trade their bolters for one they just receive a CC weapon. This just basically puts them on par with csm.

I will save you the time, the rule is not actually found in the 4th Edition codex for Space Marines(guess I was wrong in thinking it was an actual rule/option found in that codex). Now if you go to the non-canon material of likes of Bolter and Chain Sword, you find it is indeed exchange Bolter for Bolt Pistol+Close Combat Weapon.

And no this would not be setting things on par with Chaos Space Marines, because Chaos Space Marines do not have the rules of And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads as well as different Special and Heavy Weapons options, different Dedicated Transport options, and their Mark options. Many of these things have varying degrees of representation in FoK in the transfer from the Table Top, but are by in large preserved.

Scott wrote:
Well that's alright then its no worse then a Black Templar CC squad or a squad of Storm Guardians.

This is worse. Because it is one thing to have incidentally put this exploit were the same weapon in Close combat is doing more damage then the same number of Attacks in Ranged combat, but it is another to simply break the listed rules to make an exploit more widespread. That whole 2 wrongs do not make a right aspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:19 pm 
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What are we talking about here? Trading Boltguns for CCW's and a bolt pistol with a Chapter Tactic or the "Trust in Your Battlebrothers" Chapter Trait where they get a CCW, True Grit, and Counter-attack? I'm confused.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:30 pm 
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It is in the 4th its called "Take the fight to them" You an basically trade your bolter for a bolt pistol + chainsword. The other is called trust in your brothers: Command squads, vet squads (sterns/vanguard), Tac squads , assualt and dev squads get the counter attack special rule and all units with bolters are known to have a cc weapon with no extra cost.

Btw West you can do the same thing with the Black Templars just you have a squad of 20. You could do it with Chaos as well since they have a superior CC to most standard troops. So its not an exploit. Not to mention that chaos especially has a TON of CC choices. (Khore Zerks, Raptors, Rubric Marines Leader has a force weapon.) So what the difference between choosing chaos and getting 4 zerk squads to tie enemies up while my CSM use ranged attacks? (Other than the zerks still being better at CC then the CC tac squads would be)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Scott wrote:
It is in the 4th its called "Take the fight to them" You an basically trade your bolter for a bolt pistol + chainsword. The other is called trust in your brothers: Command squads, vet squads (sterns/vanguard), Tac squads , assualt and dev squads get the counter attack special rule and all units with bolters are known to have a cc weapon with no extra cost.

Specifically it is not a 4th edition rules. This a set of collected bits of inspiration around the 4th edition of the game and put together on the 40k enthusiast site Bolter and Chain Sword. As it is very well spelled out on the site
Quote:
These rules are being submitted to Games Workshop for consideration in any revisions to Codex: Space Marines. In addition, we developed a version of this project’s proposals to cover the speculated redux of Codex: Space Marines. If you have feedback on either version of these rules, feel free to contact us in the Traits/Chapters of Legend sub-forum.

The final result of this project is presented here for use as homegrown rules with the prior consent of your opponents.

So these are house rules developed independent of Games Workshop and were submitted then in full over to Games Workshop before or during the development of the 5th Edition codex and not included. Now since Bolter and Chainsword started with the Games Workshop rules of course elements can be seen in the current 5th Edition codex, but only because they were in the game in some form to begin with.

Who is for further delays in releasing FoK materials to in an effort to include something that is on par with scratch building and making up that Xenos Army List? Not me. I will be honest about that.

FoK has plenty more to get done with what is actually canon material and rules such that I am loath to put the effort into making other homegrown materials ahead of such efforts.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:57 pm 
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"Take the fight to them" trades the bolter for a bolt pistol and a CC weapon, for 5th ed logically would be trade the bolter for a CC weapon.

"Trust you battle brothers" gives "true grit" and "counter-attack" for 3pts per model
"true grit" makes units with bolter count as A2, "counter-attack" gives +1 attack only in the round the unit was charged.

What West was saying applies to every unit armed with a pistol and CC weapon....but as said in the CC thread that dmg buff compensates the lack of +1A when charge, CC lock, No targetable units in CC, etc...

There is a possible way of making rapid fire weapons not fire when charging, i think the accuracy on move modifier works with multipliers, since rapid fire weapons have half accuracy when moving (charging count as moving too) with a multiplier of 2x to the accuracy reduction on move when charging, we would get 0 accuracy = no fire :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:06 pm 
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West I have the 4th edition codex with me right now. It's in there if you can't find it then I don't know what to tell you but it's there. Take the Fight to them wouldn't need much of a de buff since it basically adds a CC Squad (We could remove HW/SW from their upgrade pool) Trust in your Battle Brothers I think would be a much more fun tactic. Obviously the debuff would have to be greater though.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:30 pm 
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I thought the idea of adding traits was to diversify the different types of Marine armies that are playable. Trust Your Battle Brothers just takes your average Tactical Marine and gives him another Attack. Yawn. Take the Fight to Them replaces his equipment with something more suited to an aggressive playstyle. I for one would much rather see Take the Fight to Them implemented than Trust Your Battle Brothers.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:37 pm 
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By the sounds of the rule though the Tac/Dev etc etc would get a CC weapon for 15 req (3 points). So its more of a buff than just giving tacs a CC wep. Trust in your Battle brothers to me just seems like an upgraded take the fight to them. (Since you can still viably use CC with trust in your battle brothers but instead of having to choose a CC/Ranged tac variant you just get both in one unit.)

We could use the HG animations and give their bolters leather straps to implement it.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:01 pm 
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If you recall they still shoot those Bolt Pistols for their range. Also a Marine player could then pick up a pair of Flamers that will still give them some nice range leading into fight. Plus you are over looking the whole of the rest of the army. If we just look at the Cap slot of Troops, this allows me to buy a Close Combat optimized Tactical squad or two, and have them Run into fights tossing Frags while the rest of the Troop cap can be normally equipped Marines who pile on shots. Between the extra damage from those 2 CC-Tac squads and the shots I can pile on form other squads, this a a very real exploit. So what if you lose out on other Tactics? If you play this Tactic to its fullest, this Tactics would make them pale in comparison


and that's no different to what you can do with chaos? thier normal troops can do exactly the same, but better because they have both the bolter and pistol & CCW.

however in the case of Space marines, you loose the bolter range and flamers are short ranged anyway.

aside from this, the option should be to replace all Space Marines bolters (the squads that can) rather than any.

that is mainly why i considered the use of it. you either trade ranged supremacy for combat prowess or you don't.

also devastators are far superior anyway without having the need of "trust you battle brothers" that shouldn't be added.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Well not to mention BT do this as well, and better because they have neophytes. I fail to see how Chainsword and bolt pistol tacticals are game breaking. Not to mention, assault marines also get flamers, and they have jump packs......

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:18 pm 
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We could always just keep Devs out of Trust in your battle brothers. Although I don't particularly see an issue in giving them CC weps.

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