Dawn of Warhammer 40,000: Firestorm Over Kaurava

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 Post subject: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:16 am 
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How about an update on something new for the Space Marines?

Now if any of you had gotten your hands, claws, or tentacles on Imperial Armor #6- The Seige of Vraks part 2, you would see there is a number of rules there that are ready to go in the 5th Edition of 40K. In addition to a number of Chaos offerings that are just asking to be incorporated into FoK, there is an entry about the Imperium's finest that were involved with the campaign- the Red Scorpions.

The Red Scorpions are upholders of the Codex Astartes, but at the same time they have their own standards they set in their service to the Emperor. So in taking cues from their rules we have a new Chapter Tactic to chose from.....

Purity and Pride for Chapter

Purity Above All
The Chapter are noted for their fanatical belief in purity of their line. They take great pains to ensure every Marine is carefully screen for any corruption or mutation. So much so that more Apothecaries join some Tactical Squads at the front line of the battle to ensure no geneseed is possibly lost or harmed. As such any Tactical Squad with this Chapter Tactic can pay to upgrade a Veteran Sergent to an Apothecary and confer Feel No Pain on their squad.

Pride in your Colors
The Chapter considers deviation from even the traditional patterns of Codex-sanctioned camouflage to be tantamount to heresy, leading the Chapter on occasion to refuse to fight alongside other Chapters. More so, the use of covert tactics are considered a sign of cowardice. As such no unit of this Chapter will have the ability to make use of Infiltration or benefit from the likes of the Universal Rules of Infiltrate or Scout.

Will you chose such standards for your Chapter?

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:53 am 
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This is competing with Master-Crafted Armory for most kickass Chapter Tactic in the book. Camouflage is for traitors like the Alpha Legion, real men Feel No Pain!

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:16 am 
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I'd absolutely give this a try! There's only one problem I can see...

... I'd much rather have Blood Angels. :lol: Hell, even Space Wolves or Dark Angels now that I think of it. I know that these other Chapters would take significantly more work to implement than the Red Scorpions, but they're much cooler...

But yeah. Totally behind the idea of the Red Scorps. Huzzah!

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:07 am 
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Dr West wrote:
"Tactic can pay to upgrade a Veteran Sergent to an Apothecary and confer Feel No Pain on their squad"

I fear this will be OP in Fok... this make seriously more powerful the Space Marines.
With eldar, alredy a nightmare fight against them! Now they only can kneel down, and wait for death...

Otherwise I like it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:32 am 
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I never make much use of Infiltrate in any case, so I just go all out with the Marines. I'd definately be giving this a consideration over Armoury or Outflank.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Personally, I would use this.

But we do need moar chapter tactics that are still missing imo. They make Space Marines less bland and repetitive...

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Anyone else see the irony in the OP? (or if that was intentional)

That's just a copy and paste from the 4th Ed traits, if we want we could use that codex for the special marine abilities.

JuronValor wrote:
Dr West wrote:
"Tactic can pay to upgrade a Veteran Sergent to an Apothecary and confer Feel No Pain on their squad"

I fear this will be OP in Fok... this make seriously more powerful the Space Marines.
With eldar, alredy a nightmare fight against them! Now they only can kneel down, and wait for death...

Otherwise I like it too.


Don't worry the Apothecary is incredibly expensive and during 4th nearly no one took it because it wasn't worth it (well, during 4th it kinda sucked though, he was able to just save the guy outright if he failed a save, but he could only do this for one guy per turn.)

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Overall I am unsure exactly how this newer Chapter will play out in the balance. My first thoughts are this would make a Plague Marine option of sorts for the Adeptas Marines while taking away the ability to maneuver unseen. The Table Top is a different dynamic of a battlefield then FoK, so what may have worked on the balance in one place might loss some in the translation. I think in the end the balance considerations will come down more to what else is in the Marines list when this Chapter Tactic is used.

I am pretty certain with this Chapter Tactic players wanting to grind out a win will have some resilient Marines to try such approaches.

Mosh4Life wrote:
But we do need moar chapter tactics that are still missing imo. They make Space Marines less bland and repetitive...

Can you point out any others that escaped FoK's attention? We are not talking lists, but Chapter Tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:07 pm 
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I'll get round to asking local 40k nutter and looking at scribd.com for more chapter tactics. Is the raven guard chapter tactic in? Im pretty sure Shrike has special chapter rules... XD

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Well the implementation of this "Chapter Tactic" taken from IA6 Red Scorpions Chapter Traits taken from 4th ed Space Marines codex Traits.....have kinda open a window to perhaps include more of those 4th ed Traits.

Dunno what you guys think but we could have plenty of them as long as they are codeable.

was looking yesterday at the 4th ed Space Marines codex, and red scorpions would fall in the Pious Trait having a minor codex divergence with 1 advantage and 1 minor drawback.

Another weird things is that Red Scorpions Chapter Tactic called "Purity and Pride" for the short, doesn't disable Combat Tactics but is more of an Added up thing....well that's how i coded it following the parameters present in IA6 red scorpions entry......also as consequence, this "Chapter Tactic" has no price aside the 100pwr......however the unlocked Tactical Squads are costing extra 125req than the regular ones...and are completely optional.

If we decide to take 4th ed Chapter Traits, i think we should disable Combat Tactics whenever more than one "trait advantage" is involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Melooo wrote:
Well the implementation of this "Chapter Tactic" taken from IA6 Red Scorpions Chapter Traits taken from 4th ed Space Marines codex Traits.....have kinda open a window to perhaps include more of those 4th ed Traits.

Dunno what you guys think but we could have plenty of them as long as they are codeable.

was looking yesterday at the 4th ed Space Marines codex, and red scorpions would fall in the Pious Trait having a minor codex divergence with 1 advantage and 1 minor drawback.

Another weird things is that Red Scorpions Chapter Tactic called "Purity and Pride" for the short, doesn't disable Combat Tactics but is more of an Added up thing....well that's how i coded it following the parameters present in IA6 red scorpions entry......also as consequence, this "Chapter Tactic" has no price aside the 100pwr......however the unlocked Tactical Squads are costing extra 125req than the regular ones...and are completely optional.

If we decide to take 4th ed Chapter Traits, i think we should disable Combat Tactics whenever more than one "trait advantage" is involved.


Could we get into this in the far far future? This is one of those things that needs to be discussed before getting too far into this...say wait till Soulstorm version is up and running?

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Yeah for sure the possible implementation of something like this would be for a future, but thoughts about the matter can always be heard now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Shouldn't this be set up more like you can get the apoth in addition to the sarge? So like we have the CSM set up to get one extra marine can't we have it so the apothecary is unlocked by the tactic and then added?

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:52 pm 
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ummmmmmmmmmmm....

No.

The rules state that a Vet Sarge may be upgraded to an Apothecary, meaning that the squad is either lead by a Vet Sarge or is accompanied by an Apothecary.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Meaning no power fist or power weapon

Mosh4Life wrote:
I'll get round to asking local 40k nutter and looking at scribd.com for more chapter tactics. Is the raven guard chapter tactic in? Im pretty sure Shrike has special chapter rules... XD


Its fleet and yes, its in.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:35 am 
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I was looking through the 4th ED and saw this:

Take the fight to them:

Any model with a bolter in a tactical squad who is not an independent character may exchange it for a bolt pistol and a CC weapon at no cost.

We could finally have a more CC oriented Space Marines army instead of the 90% ranged that it is at the moment!

Lets face it the current tacs aren't all that amazing but the 4th edition has some KILLER ways to customize your Space Marines force. Forget making separate races with some of these older tactics your boring vanilla UM army can be the Salamanders or the Raven Guard. These traits can radically change Space Marines gameplay and leave it much less predictable as it is with our current choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:38 am 
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Yah. Like Furious Charge Lighting Claw Terminators.....

Of course we might freak some new members out with infiltrating tacticals.....

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:46 am 
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I do agree with Mosh4Life, I find marines somewhat repetitive with the chapter tactics, this would be a good way to add a needed spark to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:47 am 
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Well that's the cool thing about it. People can choose how they want to play. If they're hit an run then they can do that. A player finally has the option to choose his own path! This bring so many awesome gameplay options to the table. Suffice to say I am incredibly excited if we can get this implimented.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:51 am 
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Prome posts in the public forum, a first o_0
Aha

Quote:
Well that's the cool thing about it. People can choose how they want to play. If they're hit an run then they can do that. A player finally has the option to choose his own path! This bring so many awesome gameplay options to the table. Suffice to say I am incredibly excited if we can get this implimented.


Space Marines are such a versatile force yet without these rules, all play the same. And it all adds up to the same ending. You just lascannon/PFist spam at the end... hopefully these rules will shake things up a bit >=]

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:54 am 
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Exactly! Space Marines always end up in a bloody Termie/Las cannon spam there is no fun to that at all! We need to mix it up and keep who ever you're fighting on their toes not knowing if you're going to come at them with some massive CC army or a bunch of vehicles! Hell you can even as war pointed out have a Space Marines stealth army! Stealth + CC = boat loads of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:59 am 
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I'm all for this being implemented if it's done in the same vein as we have the current trait choices with the Space Marines, especially since I am a fan of the trait True Grit (I think that's what it was called). I'm willing to wait for Soulstorm if needs be, but in the end I say go for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:03 am 
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Scott wrote:
I was looking through the 4th ED and saw this:

Take the fight to them:

That is a Fourth edition option that was intentionally dropped when the 5th edition was put together. When it comes to Chapter Tactics, they need to be the likes of things that are from the 5th edition codex or from materials were the assumed army list for the Space Marines is the 5th edition list. Otherwise we are just incorporating things that are not vetted properly for the rules or balance and making for a clusterfuck.

As for the Marines, it is very easy to vary the look and approach with the basic list as is. The current list of Chapter Tactics offer even more and mostly make it that you can stack a particular tactic in an army where most any approach is generally possible with planning.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:15 am 
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The tactic that you suggested we add is also 4th edition. I see nothing of that in the 5th. The tactics in the 5th are much too constraining to constitute as anything but speed boosts and moral boosts. They are all just basically buffs you just get to choose what buff you want. If we use 4th edition tactics then we give ourselves much more customization in our forces. It's a lot like the marks for chaos. Each mark has its ups and downs and you change your play style to said mark.

Edit: As for balance when you think about ArCo its a heavy vehicle oriented race so why not have your Space Marines tactics let you use a heavily vehicle using chapter? As we all know every unit has a counter so when you set up your tactics you should take this into consideration. When you get a heavy CC army you need to worry about things like longer ranged units and things that slow you down. While if you're more of a medium ranged guy you need to worry about those CC'rs getting close up to you so you want to use mines so on and so forth. The only way a game like this gets incredibly imbalanced is if you mess with the stats and we can easily stick to 5th edition stats with 4th edition tactics. Plus we can always weed out the tactics that we find actually makes things imbalanced. One of the great thing about TT is the flexibility. I am sure some of you have gone over to a friends and played some TT but modified the rules slightly to fit how you want to play. Great thing about FoK is we have some of that overall flexibility. Its just one of the parts that makes FoK such an amazing mod and experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:31 am 
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Well, I don't see how the Chapter Tactics would affect gameplay that much, West. They only provide slight differences in a chapter without being game-breaking. Of course, I could be wrong, but from what I've seen there's nothing overtly negative or overpowering about them.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:32 am 
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Dr West wrote:
Scott wrote:
I was looking through the 4th ED and saw this:

Take the fight to them:

That is a Fourth edition option that was intentionally dropped when the 5th edition was put together. When it comes to Chapter Tactics, they need to be the likes of things that are from the 5th edition codex or from materials were the assumed army list for the Space Marines is the 5th edition list. Otherwise we are just incorporating things that are not vetted properly for the rules or balance and making for a clusterfuck.


Funny, CSM came from having to choose between bp and ccw or bolter to just having both but no ones complaining.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:34 am 
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Right, that's the thing in FoK we have the opportunity like I said above to really make the game how TT should be. Taking the best rules from the best codex and forming a balanced and fun experience from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:38 am 
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I wouldn't put it that way either. All the races should be updated up to their current codex, as that is the most balanced and the best for gameplay. However, with Space Marines being the most stable, complete, and up to date, we have a strong base with which to add these Traits in a way that won't kill gameplay and still offer something for people who'd like their space marines to play a little differently.

It's what I wish would happen with Chaos, but that's for a different matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:41 am 
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Sorry I explained that rather badly. Of course we should keep things up to date but it wont hurt if we take things that worked better from previous editions and add them.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:46 am 
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Of course it isn't, but it's always important to have a good, strong foundation for them to be implemented properly. That way, if the given change doesn't work as planned, we can return to the beginning and see where it went wrong, and then either abandon the idea or try to fix the problem if a solution is found. It's always good to have a place to fall back on when things go to crap, and the Space Marine force gives us this, which is one reason why I'm backing this plan.

The other is because I find the traits to be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:47 am 
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I knew this was gonna happen as soon as I read the initial post. The endless desire for MOAR in action once again.

I have mixed feelings about all of this. I'm fine with the Red Scorpions' having their Chapter Tactics added as they come from an quasi-official source and were written during 5th edition. For those of you that are unaware of this, check out Scribd - I recently uploaded Forge World's Imperial Armor VI wherein the Red Scorpions' Chapter Tactics are found.

I'm a bit more wary about dipping into the 4th edition bucket of Traits, if only because there were some seriously imbalanced combos and such. See But Don't be Seen, Trust your Battle Brothers, Cleanse and Purify... these are the names of just a few of the more readily abused options.

The other thing that concerns me is that it's yet more time and effort spent on the Space Marines which are already the most complete race we have. If we're going to do this, I say we leave it until after our first Soulstorm public release. There'll already be tons to do for Soulstorm, like the Inquisition and Dark Eldar as complete races of their own, not to mention all the little changes and fixes that will need to be done as we make the transition to Soulstorm's improved capabilities. Doubtless there will be problems in the transition and so on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm worried that people's blind enthusiasm for MOAR won't allow them to be patient enough to wait until the team is in a good position to attempt to implement this. If, however, we can be patient and not add anything fancy until the timing is appropriate, then I'm all for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:50 am 
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Well for the more imbalanced tactics we don't have to use them. As Warforger said, stealthed Tac marines could be a bit silly. Allow marines to have a chance to include CC weapons and changing support choices around a bit doesn't seem like such a terrible thing though.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:09 am 
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Actually, it's already sort of agreed that this would be reserved for Soulstorm, so need to worry about that just yet, Drake, though I do understand where you're coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:11 am 
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Agreed, although Mel might add some simpler ones if he likes em'.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:12 am 
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I'd rather he not do that, especially considering our current release goals. There's still quite a bit to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:18 am 
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Etero Narciss wrote:
I'd rather he not do that, especially considering our current release goals. There's still quite a bit to do.


You and me both.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:18 am 
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Well he added the Purity tactic already if you checked. Some tactics are much easier to implement than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:51 pm 
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guyderue wrote:
Could we get into this in the far far future? This is one of those things that needs to be discussed before getting too far into this...say wait till Soulstorm version is up and running?

Melooo wrote:
Yeah for sure the possible implementation of something like this would be for a future, but thoughts about the matter can always be heard now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:02 pm 
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well anything that gives a "Medi" option to a squad would be great really - hard to keep Space Marines's and i.g alive compared to other forces really.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:05 pm 
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You have trouble keeping SMs alive? :shock:

Definitely need work done on every other race in DoW before the modders get back to Space Marines, cause I wanna see more Nurgle, not that I have any room to order anyone around...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:36 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:54 pm 
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How do you manage to find Marines hard to keep alive? Only thing I struggle against is Lootaz, and I play Hardcore more often than not, so there's even higher risk there, and that's only because Lootaz can put out something like 45 shots per person.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:57 pm 
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For those of you with accounts at the Bolter and Chainsword, check this out: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/inde ... rticle=605

For those without, what the link contains is the original list of Traits taken from the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but modified a bit to fix up some of the more glaring issues. They also added a few additional Traits to properly represent certain Chapters.

Do note that these rules were written for the 4th edition of the game and are not at this present time compatible with the current edition of the Space Marine book.

What I'm hoping to accomplish here is to give people some ideas so we can continue to discuss proper implementation and the like. Food for discussion, if you will.

Enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Vaz that was meant to be more as in alive meaning exciting not literally alive.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:36 pm 
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Didn't look like that over the internets =/. Ah well, all's fair.

Eh, might as well bring it across over to here, so it's easier to disect and quote.

Taken from Bolter and Chainsword. Go there if you want to sue my ass.

Quote:
BE SWIFT AS THE WIND
May take Space Marine Bike Squadrons as Elites and as Troops in addition to Fast Attack. HQ independent characters equipped with a Space Marine Bike may replace their Command Squad with a Space Marine Bike Squadron. Bike Squadrons taken as Elites or HQ must select either the Tank Hunter or Furious Charge special skill at a cost of +3 points per model.

Bike Squadrons taken as Troops must be at least 5 models strong. Any unit mounted on a Space Marine Bike may take the Skilled Rider skill at +2 points per model.

No need to be taken - bikers aren't in the mod.

Quote:
BLESSED BE THE WARRIORS
May take Assault Squads as Elites in addition to Fast Attack. HQ independent characters equipped with a Jump Pack may replace their Command Squad with an Assault Squad. Assault Squads taken as Elites or HQ must take the Furious Charge special skill as Veteran Squads do, at a cost of +3 points per model.

There are Vanguard squads now, so these could take the Elite choice with this option, and, Command Squads could gain Jump Packs or there's a Jump Pack option for Captain Command Squads. Furious Charge could apply.

Quote:
CLEANSE AND PURIFY
One member in each Tactical and Veteran Squad may replace his missile launcher with a flamer or his lascannon with a plasma gun or meltagun.

Not sure on how to code this. Weapons can be limited, but I'm not sure on whether the code would allow it. I'm not thinking straight, so could just be having a mind **** about the engine. However, for the purposes of the mod, it's viable.

Quote:
DEATH FROM ABOVE
All land speeders and drop pods cost +5 points per model. Units equipped with jump packs cost +1 point per model. The player may add +1 to Reserves rolls made for land speeders and units with drop pods or jump packs. When deploying using the Deep Strike or Drop Pod Assault rules, these units may re-roll the Scatter dice. The player must accept the result of the second roll, even if it is worse!

Perhaps a general decrease in Build Times (not Reinforce), and Drop Pod loading increases.

Quote:
HEED THE WISDOM OF THE ANCIENTS
One Dreadnought per detachment may be taken as an HQ choice for +40 points. The Dreadnought becomes Venerable and gains +1 Attack. The dreadnought has the Rites of Battle special rule as a Commander, with an effective Ld of 10 when using that ability. A Dreadnought upgraded in this way counts towards the limit on Venerable Dreadnoughts.

Rites of Battle is exactly the same as the Black Templar, granting Ld10 to all troops on the battlefield. Just a Ven Dread with an additional attack and Rites of Battle, so yes, that's viable.

Quote:
HONOUR THE FIRST
Amend the points cost for Terminator Armour to 25/5. This does mean that single wound models can be given Terminator Armour but may not retain any of their original wargear or weapons. Squads including one or more Terminators may not infiltrate, move through cover or make a sweeping advance. Independent characters equipped with Terminator Armour may lead or join Command Squads. Squads that include at least one member in Terminator Armour may Deep Strike if the mission allows. May not be selected by a Chapter that has taken Aspire to Glory or Lament the First.

Reducing Terminator Costs, and is another upgrade available from the Armoury. There's a slot next to Melta bombs available.

Quote:
HONOUR YOUR WARGEAR
May take Devastator Squads as Elites in addition to Heavy Support. HQ independent characters may replace their Command Squad with a Devastator Squad. Devastator Squads taken as Elites or HQ must take the Tank Hunter or Infiltrate special skill as Veteran Squads do, at a cost of +3 points per model.

Easily viable in the engine, but I'm not sure whether there's space on the UI for both Infiltrate Elite Devastators, and Tank Hunter Devs.

Quote:
IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR
0-1 Company Champion may be upgraded to the Emperor's Champion for +55 pts.

Yup. I like. I can't see people not taking advantage of the Emperors Champion if you've spent so much Resource on him, so if that's taken, it takes up another slot on the UI.

Quote:
KNOW THE WAY OF THE ENEMY
May take Scout Squads as Elites in addition to Troops. Scout units taken as Elites must take the Furious Charge or Tank Hunters special skill as Veteran Squads do, at a cost of +3 points per model.

Viable, but space could be an issue, although there is an advanced build menu.

Quote:
MAINTAIN THE INITIATIVE
Any unit mounted on Space Marine Bikes or Attack Bikes may take the Hit and Run special ability at +3 points per model. See the Universal Special Rules in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

No bikers in the mod, so moot point.

Quote:
NEVER DESPAIR
At the end of the game the Space Marine player can request an extra turn be played. Roll a die; on a 4+ an extra game turn is played. Games that end when a particular action is achieved, such as Sabotage, are not affected if the action is performed, but can be affected by allowing an extra turn for the action to be performed. If both armies have this option or if the other player has Death Before Dishonour then an extra turn must always be played.

No effect in the game.

Quote:
NO MERCY, NO RESPITE
Any Tactical Squad or Assault Squad may take the Furious Charge skill at a cost of +3 points per model.

Easily codeable.

[quote[PURITY ABOVE ALL
The Chapter is especially committed to combating mutation and corruption. Any Veteran or Tactical squad may upgrade its Veteran Sergeant to be an Apothecary. This upgrade costs a further +25 points and includes equipping the Apothecary with a Narthecium & Reductor.[/quote]
We've already discussed the viability of that.

Quote:
SCIONS OF MARS
All Chapter Chaplains must be upgraded to Chaplain-Techmarines at a cost of +15 points and have a servo-arm, signum, and auspex. The Chaplain-Techmarine loses the Honour of the Chapter and Litanies of Hate abilities, but benefits from the Blessing of the Omnissiah ability and may take a servo-harness as described in the Techmarine entry. The Chaplain-Techmarine may not take either a Command Squad or a Terminator Command Squad, but may take Servitors and a Transport as listed in the Techmarine entry. May not be selected by a Chapter that has taken The Pure Shall Lead.

We have MotF.

Quote:
SEE, BUT DON’T BE SEEN
Any Tactical Squad or Devastator Squad that does not have a transport vehicle may take the Infiltrate skill at a cost of +3 points per model. Any squad that has taken Infiltrate may take the Acute Senses skill at +1 point per model (including Veteran Squads). May not be selected by a Chapter that has taken Have Pride in Your Colours.

Easily codeable, but UI space again.

Quote:
STAND YOUR GROUND
All non-vehicle models in the army benefit from the Stubborn USR at +3 points per model.

WE already have Stubborn, so there we go.

Quote:
STRIKE FROM THE FLANK
Any unit with the Scouts universal special rule may begin the game in reserve regardless of whether reserves can be used in the mission being played. When they enter the table they may arrive from any point on the table edge other than one towards which the enemy falls back.

Outflank, so increase in speed.

Quote:
STRIKE SWIFTLY
Any Bike Squadron may benefit from the Scouts Universal Special Rule (see main rulebook for details). This ability costs +3 points per model.

Scout bikes already have this ability and pay no additional cost. Turbo-boost may not be used for the scout move.

No bikers in the game.

Quote:
SUFFER NOT THE ALIEN TO LIVE
The Chapter is expert at fighting a particular Xeno-species. All models have the Preferred Enemy ability, against either Tyranids, Eldar (including Dark Eldar) or Orks.

This ability costs 1 point per model.

Every Space Marine non-vehicle model used must have this ability if any do. The choice of Preferred Enemy should be apparent from trophies and other embellishments on the models.

Either not codeable, or just give them a bonus to hit against all enemies.

Quote:
SUFFER NOT THE WORKS OF HERETICS
Any Tactical Squad or Devastator Squad may take the Tank Hunters skill at a cost of +3 points per model.

Easily codeable as an ability requirement.

Quote:
TAKE THE FIGHT TO THEM
Any model with a bolter in a Tactical Squad, who is not an independent character, may exchange it for a bolt pistol and close combat weapon at no extra cost.

Could be done via the Entrench allowing them to swap, or an entirely new unit.

Quote:
THE PURE SHALL LEAD
All Chapter Chaplains must be upgraded to Chaplain-Apothecaries at a cost of +25 points and have a narthecium and reductor. May not be selected by a Chapter that has taken Scions of Mars.

Chaplains gain a Heal Aura. I'd forgotten this rule, but now I can see where Relic had the original idea from.

Quote:
TRUST YOUR BATTLE-BROTHERS
Any Command Squad, Veteran Squad, Tactical Squad, Assault Squad or Devastator Squad may take the skills Counter-attack and True Grit at a cost of +3 points per model for both skills. Models with True Grit and a Bolter are assumed to have a close combat weapon at no extra cost.

Armed with a CCW and Bolter, allows them to fight in close combat as if they were with a pistol.

Quote:
UPHOLD THE HONOUR OF THE EMPEROR
Any Command Squad or Veteran Squad may take a vow to trust the Emperor for their protection. They duly receive a 6+ Invulnerable Save, (against shooting only) but do not receive Cover saves.

Unless there are already 3+/6+ saves present in the game, no more room for new Armours.

Quote:
ASPIRE TO GLORY
Almost all of the technology used by Space Marine Chapters is ancient and precious. Dreadnoughts and Terminator armour for example require rare artificer skills. A recently founded Chapter may take centuries to acquire such equipment and, should battle losses be heavy, replacements are not readily available.

May take only 0-1 selection in total from the following list: Dreadnought, Terminator Squad.

May not take any Terminator Command Squads or Terminator Assault Squads. May only take 0-1 Veteran Squads. May not take Terminator armour as Wargear.

May not take any relics or artefacts from the Armoury.

No Relics is not an issue - they're no longer present. Same again for Terminators, its limiting, and 0-1 Vanguard/Sternguard really limits your choices.

Quote:
EYE TO EYE
Although the Codex Astartes includes extensive guidance on raiding, hit and run and guerilla warfare these techniques are not universally employed. The Chapter may not be able to train in these tactics (due to lack of equipment or training facilities) or be temperamentally opposed to them. This drawback may not be selected along with Be Swift as the Wind.

May only take 0-1 selection in total from the following list: Land Speeder Squadron, Attack Bike Squadron, Bike Squadron.

Is this such a drawback that's an issue - there are two units in any case that aren't present in the mod, and Land Speeder Squadrons... Well, I only use one occasionally to bust open armour until I can get Pfist Vanguard, and by then it's usually game over for one or the other.

Quote:
FLESH OVER STEEL
Selections from the following list take up 2 Heavy Support slots each: Land Raider, Predator Destructor, Vindicator, Whirlwind.

May not use Land Raider Crusader or Predator Annihilator.

Each transport option selected (other than Drop Pods) uses up a Fast Attack slot on the Force Organization Chart. Deathwind Drop pods use up a Heavy Support slot on the Force Organization Chart.

Transports simply take FA Cap now, and limits are easily imposed.

Quote:
LAMENT THE FIRST
May not be selected by a Chapter that has taken Honour the First.

May not take Terminator, Terminator Assault, or Terminator Command Squads. Terminator Armour and Terminator Honours may not be taken as wargear. Storm Bolters, Lightning Claws, Storm Shields, and Thunder Hammers are not available as weapons from the armoury.

Characters that normally have access to Terminator Honours may gain access to the Armoury and Leadership of 9 for +5 points. Terminator Honours may not be taken as an upgrade for squads. Command squads that include a sergeant who has access to the Armoury may give each specialist Leadership 9 and access to the Armoury for +5 points per model.

The latter part has no place in the game, but why you would hamper yourself with arguably one of the best units in the game is beyond me. Anyway, it's viable.

Quote:
LEAVE NO BROTHER BEHIND
This drawback may not be selected by a Chapter that has taken Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients.

All units with a Transport option must be equipped with a Transport, except those with the Infiltrate skill. Terminator units may choose not to take a Transport, but must Deep Strike.

May not take Land Raider variants except as Transports for Terminator units.

May only take 0-1 selection in total from the following list: Dreadnought, Whirlwind.

May not use the Vindicator.

Could potentially screw over the Build Orders - as in requires a Rhino/Razorback before a Tactical Squad, similar to the Razorback does, but the other way around, etc. Could be fiddly to code. Could be potentially my favourite drawback in the TT game, apart from no Vindicators. I love my Vindi's.

That's it, until I get back from Afghan, I can't make any guesses over the 4th Edition Marines.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:44 pm 
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i stuggle to keep Space Marines's alive ....because im fighting other space marine's or chaos mainly. now i know their super hard but cmon - realistically now if you got 2 evenly matched players and it become a stalemate Space Marines's gonna be dropin like flies. medic for the better part -

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 Post subject: Re: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Scott wrote:
Right, that's the thing in FoK we have the opportunity like I said above to really make the game how TT should be. Taking the best rules from the best codex and forming a balanced and fun experience from it.


Give me a break Scott - how do you know how the TT should be? Do you even play TT or have you ever played TT? Do you know that the most current codex's are balanced in the most current set of rule and not any other set? How can you defend anything you say from the point of 5th ed. rules being strictly for the newest round of codexes for each army? I'd like to see you actually answer these questions instead of ignoring or side stepping them. If you think you know what is best then prove it to me: read all the codex's and come back with an actual argument...not what you think is best.

What you are proposing is making FoK an 'anything in any codex' mod and that is beyond absurd. How do you know what the best codex is...or how do you come to that determination since each is from a different phase of the rule set? I am sorry if I am loosing my temper but this is total garbage from someone who should know far better being a mod member. I am truly flabbergasted :shock: .

So who is with me that we use 1st ed. psychic powers since they give us more options w/ greater effects! Come on you can stop time and take your whole turn twice! How awesome would that be! Also we can bring back vortex grenades from second edition which annihilate everything and can grow super sized or disappear every round! Whoa kick ass! Oh yeah in second edition you can shoot into h2h combat just like we can in FoK. Since we are already using that 2nd ed. rule why not bring the whole rule set into play! The whole edition is all about characters it would be like a giant RPG...whoa...stupid :lol: .

See anyone who knows a little of something can come up with all sorts of old rules, codex points and wargear stories. You can rationalize them in anyway you like except at the end you are not following the codex rule set or army lists...you are following what you want to follow and saying what you want to say for no other reason than you think its a good idea. I'll tell you the folks at GW and those old school founders of 40K know a heck of allot more than you do about rule, balance and armies. What you think is best only has merit when it follows the dominate rule set or is a slight deviation...otherwise you are simply talking out your hindquarters.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:59 pm 
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You can hardly fault him for being eager though, Guy. I agree with you on the grounds that whatever is done should only create slight deviations from what the current codex and rules, but that's what this discussion is for, and as I've already said, the Space Marines are stable enough to try with this little experimentation.

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 Post subject: Purity and Pride for the Chapter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Scott wrote:
Sorry, I explained that rather badly. Of course we should keep things up to date but it wont hurt if we take things that worked better from previous editions and add them.

That is exactly the recipe for making problems where said problems have no need for existing.

Etero Narciss wrote:
Well, I don't see how the Chapter Tactics would affect gameplay that much, West. They only provide slight differences in a chapter without being game-breaking. Of course, I could be wrong, but from what I've seen there's nothing overtly negative or overpowering about them.


No, they really do not do something to a level of reorganization of the Marines. What they do is make it that certain approaches when are taken by the Marines, they can become more likely then before to succeed. For example you find yourself fighting the likes of Tau, you can get the Fleet tactic. That tactic makes it that much easier for your Squads to close the gap of the extended range the Tau guns have and then move in for a beat down in Close Combat. You could take the Master Craft when you fight the likes of the Guard, since the extra crafty weapons would help take out vehicle armor. In either examples, you can pull those approaches off, it is just that the Chapter Tactic mentioned lowers the bar in reaching success or pulling off.

Katie Drake wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm worried that people's blind enthusiasm for MOAR won't allow them to be patient enough to wait until the team is in a good position to attempt to implement this. If, however, we can be patient and not add anything fancy until the timing is appropriate, then I'm all for it.

Well, first off thanx for pointing me to the materials were this was found. I did have the Anphelion book that also featured the Red Scorpions, but that was a 4th(3rd?) edition version of the Chapter. So I may have put forth adding the Chapter Tactic, but without your sharing of the materials I would have had nothing to share. And on that note, you are veyr much correct. We should not be digging around obsolete lists and older materials just to make things up. Plus a real lesson is here on how those older Chapter lists are pretty much non-viable. Look at the difference between the 5th Edition list and the 4th/3rd on

Current version:
Image

Older version:
Image

Very close but not the same. So instead of taking haphazardly trying to figure out how to make changes that balance these 4th Edition lists accordingly in 5th Edition, stick with only 5th edition were we have all the testing and balancing done at the Games Workshop itself. Why make work for ourselves we do not have to. Oh and its not like we can very well figure out or predict reliably how that same list would be changed between editions. The treatment of the Imperial Fists Chapter list kind of shows that.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3695664482_a19b52ccca.jpg

There are elements of what will become the carry over to 5th edition, but really there is no indication FoK could have distilled or predicted what is now be the Chapter Tactic Hold the Line & Stubborn. Instead of spending all this time and energy making something that is very likely to be found wrong later, let's show patience and let the new material come as it will.


***Oh and what the hell is it with the itchy mouse-finger for the new site administrators? In the past month I have seen more thread or post re-writes and locks then I have in entirety of the the previous administration. I was not aware of FoK picked up a Ministry of Truth. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:11 pm 
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Hrmm, well, as always, you make good points Dr. West. I still would like to see these traits experimented around with, since I really do believe they could offer something different, but truth be told they won't be missed if not added (I hardly use Traits myself). Besides, we still have a load of other stuff to worry our heads over without getting into deep discussions about Traits right now.

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