Dawn of Warhammer 40,000: Firestorm Over Kaurava

The definitive Table Top conversion mod for Dawn of War.
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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:59 am 
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Rocktober! wrote:
We took this to MSN earlier and made some progress. No one bothered to post it though. :shock:


Care to give us a general idea of what went down?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:13 am 
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Well in typical fok internal discussions it starts off with Hellos and jumps right into drama, drama, drama, confusion, drama, a series of post references and links, drama, a sarcastic mention of forum ranks more drama and then someone points out they were on the "same page" all along.

After that point we got serious and noted that a new trait WILL be added in which a tactical marines squad option will be added which comes equipped with CC weapons and bolt pistols and lose other options for HW's. Also devs will get CC weps and pistols to start with instead of bolters.

Unfortunately tacs with bolters will be reduced to just 2 squads allowed.

Also mention of other traits making an appearance but nothing solid or near future.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:22 am 
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Moshy would have liked to add to that convo... =[

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:58 am 
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My understanding was we all liked the idea but agreed to disagree and were going to save the discussion more for Soulstorm. We did hammer out a few issues though :). (Basically what Rock posted :P)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:24 am 
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SpardaSon21 wrote:
So Horus, you are only opposed to Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit, not Tacs with CCW's/Bolt Pistols?

Tacs with CCW's/Bolters/True Grit would only be as powerful as CSM are now, and at a cost of 3 points per model, which in FoK is 15 extra req, which is a lot considering Tacs are already 80 req. 95 req per Space Marines for parity with CSM in terms of versatility, plus a serious debuff to vehicles if combined with "Flesh Over Steel" is a lot. I'm not sure what vehicles "Flesh Over Steel" prohibits, but I know it only allows a single Predator with no lascannon upgrades, no Land Raider Crusaders, plus all Land Raiders are a 0-1 choice, and I'm not sure what else. More expensive Tacs, plus fewer vehicles mean Space Marines are actually less versatile if that trait is implemented. They end up with fewer armored vehicles. Sure Space Marines will still have Dreads, Termies, and Razorbacks, but getting a Razorback means less heavy weapons because they require a Combat Squad, and getting a Dread means getting one less Terminator squad. And Space Marines Tacs may not even get all of the bonuses since I'm not sure Counter-attack can be implemented in FoK. A penalty to vehicle build time, plus fewer vehicle choices will seriously gimp any Space Marines army that chooses this trait.

The rules may even prohibit CCW/Bolt Pistol Tacs from getting heavy/special weapons since the rules state Tacs must exchange a bolter to get a heavy or special weapon, and they have no bolters to exchange for heavy/special weapons.


Tactical's with True Grit suck in cc compared to tacticals with BP and Chainsword, they don't get a charge bonus and sine they get counter-attack it was designed so that they have a nice counter charge when then enemy attacks. Counter Attack now makes it so that enemies lose there charge bonus, so if you charge or they charge there's no difference. Tacticals with bp and chainsword can charge and get a charge bonus making them 3 attacks on the charge equivalent to ASM. This may not seem siginificant but take into perspective a ten man squad of bp and chainswords and a 10 man squad of true grit, the one with the bp and chainsword have 10 more attacks on the charge.

Also not to mention the fact that you can't charge and shoot your bolter, while with a bolt pistol you can, adding 10 more attacks that are S4.

True Grit-For Counter Charge
Bp And CCW-for assault

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:46 am 
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Not to mention lascannons generally work better when you use the business end instead of the butt stock... Im all for putting in the BP/CC trait, its what the Blood Angels use, isn't it? Id just like to see the trait advantages and disadvantages mirror the chapters they are based on. No mutations of the rules, no min/maxing, just what it says in the codex.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:53 am 
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No. Instead they get ASM as troops :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:53 am 
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Scott wrote:
My understanding was we all liked the idea but agreed to disagree and were going to save the discussion more for Soulstorm. We did hammer out a few issues though

What do you mean "we"?

In the year plus that the Marines have been set to match the 5th Edition Codex, until very recently everyone was quite happy with the set up. If they were really missing something in the course of the “upgrade“ to 5th Edition, I would have thought it would have been brought up long before this. That is along side the question of why bother to even update any army let alone the Marines when a newer Codex is released.

I am defiantly not liking digging up old rules when the current Codex adherent Marines List has more ways to play out then you can shake a Power Fist at. I might consider discussing further if it was recognized that in incorporating these elements from a defunct Codex, if you put it in its proper context and that in addition to rules elements beyond the Bolter trade-in you also keept he other aspect of that rule in that under Elites you get Veteran Marine Squads and those options, not Sternguard or Vanguard of 5th Edition. Otherwise, you are being flippant in consideration of all elements when some rules are to cherry-picked out and all the while consideration of their context or following in full is ignored.

We have one army that is inconsistent in its keeping an up to date army list. The game will not be improved by doing that to another list.

Besides, by the time we get to Soulstorm and the other races are settled in enough to consider going back to the Marines, the Space Wolves Codex will be out and people will likely be all hot and bothered for those Close Combat lovin' Marines and all the new ideas and options they bring with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:27 pm 
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This is like how the Chaos lord upgrades topic went, some people want to mix editions, others want purely the new stuff and the rest of us just want someone to decide already so that we can all move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:49 pm 
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1x1General1x1 wrote:
This is like how the Chaos lord upgrades topic went, some people want to mix editions, others want purely the new stuff and the rest of us just want someone to decide already so that we can all move on.

Actually General, I am right in with you and the "rest of us" category. I want simplicity and consistency rather then going about tilting at every fluff-inspired windmill out there.

Look at it this way, because to the mixing of Chaos lists, we can easily go about a dozen ways to get a dozen different points values for a Thousand Sons Marine in Terminator armor, rather then if we simply kept making use of the current edition of Table Top as the basis. Of course I am going to want to be smart about things and try steer away from such problems ahead of time with the Marines or any other army. That is what learning from things is all about.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Ok, Ive been kicking this around in my head for a bit. Im not trying to run over anyone's toes with a land raider or anything so don't be offended if I say somethin you disagree with.

The Purity Above All chapter tactic has been 5E approved and I think I heard someone say it was in (correct me if Im wrong, I wont be offended). Going off the earlier post in this thread that showed the 4E and 5E versions of the tactic (here) I am guessing the 4E divergences will only receive a few tweaks for 5E.

Granted, if you want to wait until the official codex rules are updated to put them in, I can't fault anyone for that. From my point of view, it doesn't seem logical to just ignore them when there is a chance you could do the code now and only make a few tweaks later. Know what I mean? A few bored coders could have the chapter tactics done and simply be updated in a later version.

Again, Im not trying to step on any coder toes or make space marines *the* team. I play my World Eaters just as much as my Space Wolves. I just like having melee heavy troop choices. If I have to use "Imperial" Chaos guys then so be it. Either way, I appreciate the work this mod team has done. :D

Sorry for the long post. In order to make up for it, this ones for the Imperial Guard fans...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Okay, so I'm an internet at the minute that's from a wireless about 30 metres away across the road, so while I had a list of the space marine chapters which have a codex, (blood angels, dark angels and Space Wolves), I'm unable to upload them. And for some reason, my Clipboard is fucked.

However, instead of going through the issue of creating an entire new race, why not include them as Chapter Tactics? It could please those who wonder why we have Black Templars, but not their favourite Chapter.

It's a radical difference, and changes FOC slots around, so could be difficult, but I had the idea of-

Blood Angels
Chapter Master - as before, but if he takes a Jump Pack, he spawns Honour Guard (as they are now, rather than Vanguard Squads), but with Jump Packs on.
Assault Squads - become Troops
Tactical Squads - become Fast Attack but come with a Rhino with overcharged engine.
Vanguard Squads become Elites, but Sternguard are no longer available.
Death Company and Baal Predators are Blood Angels Specific, rather than as a Chapter Tactic, so wouldn't be present.

Dark Angels
This is specifically Deathwing. Ravenwing is covered by Outflank Chapter Tactics, as bikes aren't in the mod, and Company Dark Angels is (for the most part) Codex.

All Characters instantly have Terminator Armour.

To balance out having 55 Terminators in the field, I suggest changing it to the following:
Terminator heroes are available in Tier 2, and Terminator Command Squads (Apothecary and Chapter Banner for one spawned by the Master of the First Company (Captain in Terminator Armour, no Honour Guard), just an Apothecary for the other heroes Terminator Commanders).

However Elite Terminators are max 5 in size, and spawn like such. Once you have 3 Squads however, Tactical Squads become unavailable, and the Terminators are now available, spawning in units of 10. Sounds hard to beat (87 Terminators), but it could have either a Time Penalty when building more than one squad (as if 2K req and a 3 minute+ Build Time wasn't enough) of Terminators, similar to how Transports work currently.

Land Raiders similarly become Transports and heavy Support options, but are limited by timing etc.

All other options could be disabled as well, once you hit T3, so that while you can get Predators supporting your Tactical Squads in Tier 2, once they're dead, you're forced to building Land Raiders and Terminators, which take longer to build with each new squad.

Lastly,

Space Wolves
Not much really needs doing here.

Wolf Lord becomes a Chapter Master, Fenrisian Wolves not present.
Wolf Guard bodyguard come in Terminator Armour and Power Armour (naturally with Runic Armour/Artificer Researches, depending on the armour of the Lord)
Frost Blade becomes Relic Blades
Deep Striking Terminator Squads no longer available, other than by Drop Pod. They deploy normally instead.
Grey hunters become Tactical Squads with True Grit
Blood Claws become Tactical Squads with Bolt pistol, and Close Combat weapon.
Sternguard Veterans no loner present.
Long Fangs become Devastators etc.
Leman Russ not allowed.
Frost Blades become Relic Blades.

That's me done. If there are any discrepancies, please shout up, and I'll try to rectify them.

RyoOjin, I like your ideas.

As to answer some points - yes, Purity Above all is in. You can build Squads with Apothecary Sergeants, or you can build Squads with Standard Marine Sergeants. Sergeants recieve Weapon upgrades, while Apothecaries boost Squads restore rate (I believe this will become more preferential in the new set ups).

In addition, Scout Squads (useless as they were in all but the very earliest game to rapidly cap long reaching points to get a choke point set up) now lose their benefits - sight range becomes standard, speed becomes standard, and they lose infiltrate. They now are limited to Sniper Rifles, Combat Blades, and their auspex for choosing over standard marines. Which is nothing major.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Vaz wrote:
However, instead of going through the issue of creating an entire new race, why not include them as Chapter Tactics? It could please those who wonder why we have Black Templars, but not their favourite Chapter.


That, my friend, is precisely what I have been trying to say. The balance issue is already dealt with by each chapter and just because a chapter has a strong combination doesn't mean everyone will play it. Blood Ravens are a perfect example. You will never see me play them willingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Vaz Blood Angel Tactical's are still troops, if we make then fast attack then we go against fluff as well, since the majority of the squads even in the BA chapter are tacticals.

As for DA, I wouldn't really touch them, Ravenwing are non implementable and Deathwing are largely unplayable, especially in early game, as they cost WAAAAY too much, this is even a huge drawback in TT and makes them a hard army to play in TT.

IIRC SW don't get Terminators, instead they have to upgrade there Wolfguard with Terminator armor, but they can also reach to sizes up to 20 men and get 3 assault cannons.

Long Fangs are different then Devastators, they are limited to 5 man and can split there fire, but currently in TT this is largely inferior to Space Marines which can just use combat squads.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Hmm... I was thinking over the balance, tbh. Still, that would mean that the Blood Angels would only have Fast Attack options as Land Speeders (no bad thing), but then again, it's getting the majority of their flavour.

I thought it would make it more interesting to use the Fast Attacking troops as those which capture the objectives, while the Overcharged Rhino's flank an opponent. Still, that's interpretation, and how I've played Blood Angels. I'd like to see Blood Angels relevant units in, such as Jump Pack Honour Guard, so it's entirely selfishly put forward otherwise ;D

Dark Angels, I agree on. Which is why I went for a slight blend between the Company and Deathwing Armies - meaning that the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic meant that once the foothold was established in Tier 2 and Tier 3, their elites would come on down, their Terminator Armoured Elite options available earlier, in smaller squad sizes, and slightly cheaper (IIRC, I think Deathwing were Cheaper anyway), while those without Terminator Armour aren't available after Tier 3, at which time Squads of Terminators can be built.

Space Wolves - they were radically different. My ideas behind the suggestions were to keep it Codex Astartesy, but keep the flavour of such non codex chapters. I'd come up with ideas for Black Templars, but they're already done for the most part.

It also means that if others wish to join in at a later date, they can aid Mr Horus. I'd be willing to attempt the coding, as I believe that Gorbs AWOL? Won't be as good as him, probably, and I'm sure that others might be able to do it better, but I could submit something, as I'm doing nothing else at the minute. can't when I'd get to be able to submit it though, stuck in here for 2 months at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:01 pm 
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I'm never AWOL :)

That said, I believe Melooo is the primary coder for this mod. I assist with tricky questions which people might not know the answers to and in the brainstorming of ideas that require tricky coding.

I'm kinda too busy coding for other mod projects to undertake the mammoth task that is FoK coding. That said, the Dark Eldar are still my babies.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Give me codex-accurate chapter tactics or give me... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

*ahem*

But seriously, the codex versions are the best GW can do. Id personally like to see the 4E versions of the traits but if we can't do that, I suggest waiting until the new chapter tactics come out for each chapter. I don't want to see some strange bastardised version of a good thing, ya know?

As it stands, I just use Chaos to simulate my Space Wolves. They can pretty much have access to all the unit types I use on TT.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:33 pm 
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Well after a game with Apothecary marines, quite honestly I don't see what the fuss is about, they can't get weapon upgrades meaning they can't harm tanks (at least with combat squads).

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:13 am 
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IIRC, Medes made apoth's have plasma pistol upgrade. Hence should upgrade with Plasma Pistols: Troops as would a normal sarge...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 am 
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GONE ARE THE DAYS WHEN ANY MARINE IN A COMMAND SQUAD INCLUDING ANY SPECIALISTS MAY TAKE OPTIONS FROM THOU HOLY ARMOURY.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:13 am 
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[quote=
New addition
5. Apothecaries-

The apothecaries were added as an option for tactical squad leaders and we have the option to build both right now. Not OP at all because in taking an apothecary you lose out on melta bombs from having a sarge in the squad. (Also worth noting that the healing effects his squad only (Coders confirm?) so you cannot have 2 medic squads healing other squads while the sarge squads use melta bombs.


1. Can you tell me how to get the apothecaries for tac squads...?.I can't find them in the leader options
2. I read somewhere (skirmish loading screen I think) that infiltration mode was not as good/secure as stealth mode...where do I find this stealth mode....?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:34 am 
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Location: Well, lets just say you shouldn't look in your attic anymore.
1. We are talking about the future release, so its not in RC1218

2. Some units have infiltration others have stealth, look at the units tool tips, hopefully it will say which they have, although, not very many units have stealth. Plus, not all tooltips are correct/complete.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:18 am 
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1x1General1x1 wrote:
1. We are talking about the future release, so its not in RC1218

2. Some units have infiltration others have stealth, look at the units tool tips, hopefully it will say which they have, although, not very many units have stealth. Plus, not all tooltips are correct/complete.


Thanks again...


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:27 am 
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Vaz wrote:
However, instead of going through the issue of creating an entire new race, why not include them as Chapter Tactics?

Because fans want their chapter in game, close to the real thing as possible.
And that's STRONGLY include visual apperance too! Dark Angels -> robes, bone coloured DW, black RW, etc; Blood Angels -> blue, yellow, gold helmeted units, fluffy and gold artificier armor, etc; Space Wolves -> just look at them...
All in overal, insignas, emblems, etc.

Without this things, all is pointless.

Chapter tactics is good for generaly similar Space Marines chapters to choose something from, but not for representing the "big guns".


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:33 pm 
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You brought this back, just to say that? o.O

Anyway, "Fans" who want them in their games, can do exactly what mephistoned and warcaster have done, and learnt how to mod to get them in game.

For the time being, placing in "Chapter Tactics" was a semi-viable way of representing them, without an entire new race being created.

I didn't say "Never include them", I said "instead of the issue", referring to the length of time created.

Warcaster is looking at the space wolves, I believe, and we have few units ready for them, but BECAUSE someone was willing to put in the leg work, it's a suggestion taken seriously.

As for the "Big Guns", I doubt you can get much more "Big Guns" than Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists, White Scars, or Ravenguard. Of those, only one isn't a Chapter Tactic in existence.

With them not being in, the comments and questions will be "why are SW/BT preset, but XYZ aren't?"

As to the Blood Angels, perhaps I don't want to play Blood Angels with the Blood Angels iconography? Perhaps I'd prefer to play it with my own. So there I am with my Blue and White Armour, yet slap bang in the middle is an sculpted icon of a Bloody winged cup. Swings and roundabouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Vaz wrote:
I'd like to see Blood Angels relevant units in, such as Jump Pack Honour Guard

Of course any one do what he/she want.
But changes like BA ONLY jump pack honour guard squad with "chapter tactics" for the no name "pink marines", or doing the same with DA deathwing... is a rape.

END for me.

Other:
Whats the apothecary limit number in the army if you coose the "purity over pryde"?
As I know in a space marine chapter there is only 10 apothecary. Sounds stupid to let runing around 4-6 in one place. Don't know the details, maybe I wrong on their numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine Trait Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:55 pm 
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this is pointless.

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